Titus 3: 8-9 Amp
But avoid foolish and ill-informed and stupid controversies and genealogies and dissensions and quarrels about the Law, for they are unprofitable and useless. After a first and second warning reject a divisive man [who promotes heresy and causes dissension–ban him from your fellowship and have nothing more to do with him], well aware that such a person is twisted and is sinning; he is convicted and self-condemned [and is gratified by causing confusion among believers].
Doc 
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REPOST (sorry)
I mean no disrespect in posting this, but I feel a need to say this. satan has had a temporary victory on this forum. He managed to close down the tread from May 2.
He sends people who profess to be followers of Jesus. They have scriptural knowledge, they talk the talk, BUT , just using some critical thinking we should see, any and all questions, are not from someone searching for answers, but an enemy trying to plant doubt in what you believe. If Jesus himself, was explaining the truth to them, that person would still not accept, BECAUSE , they was never looking for truth, just to disrupt and destroy .
Our part 
is we continue feed into this , hence we need to examine our own selves. (WHY)
I believe unless we do that , it will never end. The father of lies has many * self proclaimed christians on the bench ready to come on the field, and they know their game, BUT if we don’t play, there is no game.
Take a knee for JESUS, and don’t play the game. It’s not easy , I’ve been watching from the stadium, and my ego wants to jump in many times, but I know it’s not Christ in me, but my righteous flesh.
- I wrote self proclaimed above, because I have no clue who is a true Christian, I even doubt myself at times.
Warmly Doc
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James, this came to mind when I read your comment…
I suppose it ^ could most certainly pertain to prophetic happenings, too, as events continue to make us go, “hmmmm.” 
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Sad to hear you need to take a break. Don’t stay away too long. Your wise words are so valued and we need you right now. 
Verse 13 nails it (pun intended)… 
2 Timothy 2:11-13
This is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with Him,
we will also live with Him;
if we endure,
we will also reign with Him;
if we deny Him,
He will also deny us;
if we are faithless,
He remains faithful,
for He cannot deny Himself.
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The word was made flesh, so in a sense the word IS Jesus. Right? Just pointing that out because it’s interesting, not being contradictory or anything.
We can all misunderstand–I’m sure there are many times I don’t even know about where I misunderstood someone.
My rule of thumb is, if the person doesn’t get it when you post what you think and they TOTALLY get it all wrong completely–by twisting what you said to even make it look like you are saying something else…that’s when I just check right out. I’ve learned the hard way people are sneaky sometimes and if it feels like they are purposefully ignoring the point, and not getting it, they probably are purposefully trying to be contradictory.
One thing I’ve learned is to (almost completely) ignore the OSAS stuff, people get weird. We are instructed not to judge each other so…it’s all up to the Lord anyway as far as the ultimate destination goes, and our reasonable service as well.
Once you are truly saved, you are. The end. Do good stuff to please the Lord with the time you have, God has a way of motivating us. We should not forget the simplicity of the gospel.
There are verses for all that, but I am not super good at memorizing the “address” of them.
Love will remain in the end, so I also try to think the best of people, and love them with the help of the Holy Spirit, who comforts us, and leads us to all truth.
And thank God for his grace, and mercy!
Glad to have the people that are here, and I have learned much. God bless this ministry. In Jesus’ name amen.
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so in a sense the word IS Jesus. Right?
I’d say YES, But!
Satan knows the Bible and how he loves to quote Scripture in order to destroy faith. Remember how he tried to persuade Jesus to throw himself down from the temple roof? He argued from Scripture ! “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written , ‘He will command his angels concerning you’” . Note well! Satan does not always try to ruin faith by saying, “The Bible isn’t true.” He often tries to destroy our faith by affirming some passage and using it to lead us into disobedience." John Piper
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John Piper…I think I read a book or two of his?
We have the Holy Spirit though, so I think we can be in unity on all things. I don’t know everyone’s heart though, so I don’t know why they were deceived, I do know Jesus was not deceived, and greater is he that is in me, than he that is in the world. So we don’t have to be deceived.
I don’t have all the answers, and I think the devil can use scripture…but most of the time I think it’s just the sin in a person that may make them misunderstand scripture—when it’s license to sin especially.
Other than that, idk it would take knowing everyone and why they are deceived.
Idk why people want to argue. That would require me being inside a person to know their motives.
I think only Jesus had this power “because he knew people’s hearts”
I try to focus more on what is true, rather than focusing on what is false, or might be false, or what is false in someone else. LOL that’s a mouthful.
Focus on what is true I think that’s is Phil 4:8? True, lovely…etc.
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@Saved-by-Grace YUP. That is so true.
Luckily around where I live we “look it up” and any pastor I’ve had in recent years has said “don’t just take my word of it, read the Bible and see what it says”.
That’s the attitude we should have.
Read your Bible, do what God is saying to do. Don’t just listen, do what the Bible says. 
And like you said, as well, please READ the Bible. Every moment you get the chance.
I say thank the Lord for his grace, and mercy, I need it everyday, but recently on my bad/crummy days this week, I appreciate Jesus ALL THE MORE.
See? God uses everything for our good.
God bless.
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Thought this was interesting. I do think the Holy Spirit is the restrainer, but could it be Micheal? When he “stands up”? OR is that too late.
Anyone got some good words on the restrainer and how that might relate to what is going on in Israel right now?
The restrainer is in effect the Holy Spirit sure, but not the person of the Holy Spirit, it is the Mission He was given at our Spiritual Baptism and at Pentecost, the Comforter, the Teacher.
This is what is removed as we are removed.
He is not simply for Israel, but for ALL believers in our Age of Grace which is about to end.
Remember that Christ gave Authority and Power to the church (body of believers of which Christ is the Head). And while we are here, the gates of hell can not prevail. After we are removed… different story…
My answer is “our presence” is the restrainer by effect of the Holy Spirit’s mission in our time.
Would be quite fitting for our exit to be at Pentecost this year (I can hope)
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Blessings 
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Its the Holy Spirit. It’s not an angel. That sounds like a Catholic belief. The Holy Spirit is the one that restrains. God, the Son, and Holy Spirit have the power and the glory. No angel can restrain. Angels are messengers and they do help us with spiritual warfare, but they can’t restrain the antichrist; only the trinity can do that.
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But what a beautiful mouth (respectfully) you have in this dear sister. Amen
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I have heard some good arguments that it might be Michael. I have even fries to throw on top of the Michael take. But I will “restrain” myself from doing so. 
I’m serious too.
There is a few ways to get at this verse. What is this referring to? When AC makes a covenant with the many? OR…when he is EMPOWERED? Dun dun dun dun 
I read this commentary…and do you know where i jumped to like “right away?”
Meyers NT Commentary
2 Thessalonians 2:7.[48] An explanatory justification of εἰς τὸ ἀποκαλυφθῆναι αὐτὸν ἐν τῷ ἑαυτοῦ καιρῷ, but not a parenthesis (Hemming). The mystery of wickedness is certainly even now active, but Antichrist cannot be manifest until the power preventing him be overcome.
The two witnesses. Why? Well after the 5th Trumpet when the pit opens up and the beast that comes out of it KILLS the two witnesses…um…maybe we are OVER the target?
What we commonly look at is the AC coming in throwing in glory, getting a crown and singing Yankee Doodle. But what if the “out of the way biz” is when he gets supernatural power? Would that not be the real concern? I have seen 2 Thes 2:3 “and the man of lawlessness is revealed…” be understood as “the man of lawlessness in a hoody” when he makes a deal with the many incognito and then “we know.” But the only way that would be true is if the church is still here. Which i think could happen…but then we would have to leave right way because we would mess up his plans. But we could “ID” him. If it is not the church…the world wont. But in the midtrib…yeah…he’ll be kind of hard to miss. Just a thought.
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@NamDoc blessings to you too 
@catfaire , I didn’t read it from a catholic source, I was referencing Daniel, just from me reading it, but good points!
That is interesting. It makes sense too.
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Hi Casey…in respect to Michael as restrainer…please see the following:
MICHAEL AS THE RESTRAINER
When Is The Rapture? Part 17 - Michael The Restrainer - YouTube short video
Michael The Archangel - The Restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2: 6-7 - YouTube short video
https://bit.ly/3eNFvUT Peer Reviewed Journal Article
I believe I have this article…but need to see how I can send it to you.
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This is as far as I got. It is panning out. But perhaps others can weigh in where it might not be correct or where it might have merit. This is a pretty amazing thing if true. Blessings.
THE 
TWO WITNESSES AS THE RESTRAINER THEORY
MEYER’S NT COMMENTARY
2 Thessalonians 2:7.[48] An explanatory justification of εἰς τὸ ἀποκαλυφθῆναι αὐτὸν ἐν τῷ ἑαυτοῦ καιρῷ, but not a parenthesis (Hemming). The mystery of wickedness is certainly even now active, but Antichrist cannot be manifest until the power preventing him be overcome. 2 Thessalonians 2:7 Commentaries: For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. That made me right away think about The Two Witnesses.
WHO IS AC BEING REVEALED TO? :
Most people that look at 2 Thes 2 are thinking that the man of lawlessness being revealed is like at the beginning of the tribulation when he makes a deal with Israel. But if the church is gone, who is going to know? The angels? Who is he exactly revealed to? In the context it looks like the word is indicating a revealing when he has supernatural powers and demands worship at the middle of the tribulation. So I think that is when it is talking about possibly.
WHERE ARE THE TWO WITNESSES NOW?
So if you go and look at Rev Chapter 11 we learn that the two witnesses are THE LAST thing to keep the antichrist down before he demands worship. There is a beast that comes out of the pit (according to Rev 11) that kills the two witnesses after their 3.5 year service (5th Trumpet). And then they rapture up. So they are taken away by killing and then taken away into the clouds. Maybe God assigned the restrainer mission to Enoch and Elijah (both who did not die)? If you check out Zachariah chapter 4 you will read about the two lampstands and the two olive trees…which is what Rev 11 tells us the 2 witnesses are.
HOW LONG HAVE THE TWO WITNESSES BEEN SOMEWHERE?
So when it says in 2 Thes 2:6-7 that the restrainer was then restrainer in the 1st century too…it might grammatically mean that Paul meant that they know THEN or NOW which is then to them that the restrainer does that…and not necessarily because the restrainer was doing that then too (at least according to the Greek grammar). However, even if it did mean the restrainer back then in Paul’s day was active…well…it seems the two witnesses were before the at throne of God in 500 BC in Zachariah’s day. So it looks like it might be them possibly. What do you think?
IS “HE” REFERRING TO THE HOLY SPIRIT GOVENANCE OVER PREVIOUS 2:6 MENTION?
The only hitch is a minor one. The only hitch is the use of “he” in 2 Thes 2:7. The two witnesses would not be called he. But if you look in the Greek there is no Strongs number for that word. And when you look up its meaning it is like “the” or “what.” and they say it is “he” because of it being a masculine use of a word. But I don’t know how Greek works. If you or anyone you know is good looking into that, what are the terms in Greek for “he” in 2 Thes 2:7? Because if that pans out…it looks like it is the two witnesses quite possibly.
HOW SOON AFTER THE 2 WITNESSES ARE GONE DOES AC DEMAND WORSHIP?
They are the last thing holding AC back. He can’t kill them until the end of their ministry. And it takes the beast that comes out of the Trumpet 5 pit to supernaturally kill them. So that means the next thing that happens is he demands worship and the mark…because if you look in Rev 15 you have saints that died for not taking the mark before any bowl judgement was released. So it has to be sometime after the 6th Trumpet (per chapter 11 in Rev) and before bowls that the AC does the MOB routine. The two witnesses were holding him back. Once they leave…he’s fully on stage. Right after they get…“taken out of the way.” A very familiar term.
WHAT DOES THE GREEK TEXT HAVE TO SAY ABOUT “HE”
This article says that there is no “he” used in the Greek. Skip's Lighthouse: HOW I UNDERSTAND 2 THESSALONIANS 2:7! These translations mirror perhaps a cleaner yielding of the Greek intent… 2 Thessalonians 2:7,
NLT: “For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way.”
Berean Study Bible: For the mystery of lawlessness {is} already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way.
THE KING JAMES: For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now le…(kjv has “he”) for contrast.
Adam Clarke’s commentary captures this same Greek sense used: Adam Clarke Commentary Verse 7. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work — There is a system of corrupt doctrine, which will lead to the general apostasy, already in existence, but it is a mystery; it is as yet hidden; it dare not show itself, because of that which hindereth or withholdeth. But when that which now restraineth shall be taken out of the way, then shall that wicked one be revealed-it will then be manifest who he is, and what he is.
GREEK CHART LAYOUT
In this Greek chart layout it shows Strongs 3588 as meaning “the one” or “that which” restrains. It may not be “he” but I’m guessing could be the two olive trees which is that which restraineth…kind of like. Well it does seem possible from the Greek to see this. As a potential. And it could be that 2 Thes 2:6 is the two witnesses…and 2:7 is the Holy Spirit who ultimately sponsors them.
ELIJAH HAS BEEN CONSIDERED AS THE RESTRAINER BEFORE
To my surprise it has been understood that the restrainer was the Roman guard for quite a bit of time. Michael has been a consideration too. But I see from this quote it would appear so has Elijah
Wow. In this article, it actually mentions “Elijah” as one that has been considered.
greek - Who is "taken out of the way" and what is the function of "ginomai" in 2 Thessalonians 2:7? - Biblical Hermeneutics Stack Exchange see quote under answer 3
Biblical Hermeneutics Stack Exchange
https://bit.ly/3uUUaU4 (JD is mentioned – not in reference to 2 witnesses) Please see Pentecost Post
CONCLUSION
In any case this is something you find no research on. But there are plenty of tools. Blessings.
Hi.
I have good news. As satanic propaganda is becoming prevalent, widespread, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior is also ramping up HIS SAVING POWER. Here are a few artists from the Philippines being used by God to bring people to HIM.
May God use more and more people to become salt and light to this dying world. May I be one of them too…I only do little by sharing videos, worship songs, words of hope…
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Ok, so regarding the article i wanted to provide for you I do not have. And they want $51.00 for it. Lol…must be pretty good.
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t H e M 
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DISCLAIMER: Please note that I am submitting these for your discussion interest. I am fascinated by differing views and approaches among true biblical theological scholarship. In no way am I concerned with the issue of the restrainer as it relates to the rapture. I do not see the two related. However, most of the debate of who the restrainer is seems to hinge on when the rapture is. I am a pretrib rapture guy. I think itis the strongest position biblically and scholarly. And I have looked at it a lot. This collection is courtesy to cluster in some ideas in respect to considering Michael as the restrainer. Thank you and please I hope you do enjoy
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Here is a scholarly work that looks at different identities of the restrainer but favors the Holy Spirit. It includes popular world views over the centuries. It is an interesting short helpful read:
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Here is one scholarly article on Michael as the restrainer recommended: It is $34 though 
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This one is $37.50. It talks about the ambiguity being on purpose in 2 Thes 2 because of whom might read it.
Its called: ‘A Letter as by Us’: Intentional Ambiguity in 2 Thessalonians 2.2
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You can skim quite a bit through this free version of this book: From Hope to Despair in Thessalonica: Situating 1 and 2 Thessalonians
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6 Reason Nutshell Why Michael is the Restrainer:
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PART ONE OF TWO PART Michael is the Restrainer (Scholarly Podcast) Part One Is On My Previous Post to you Casey This is because we can’t get the scholarly article from MICHAEL, THE RESTRAINER REMOVED (2 THESS. 2:6—7) by Colin Nicholl. But those (these) 2 podcasts look into his theories.
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This brief article (with comments) is about the two different uses of pronouns (2Thes2:6 & 7). This one is not Michael centric…but it kind of helps my case as the two witnesses…so yeah…I snuck it in here…hehe.
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Since I am interrupting the flow…this kind of goes with some of the allusions the previous article gets into about Isaiah. Michael Heiser is a well regarded scholar but he has his own ways of seeing things I don’t always agree with. But he does bring up some fantastically interesting points no matter what he looks into. This is fascinating although not a Michael centric deal either. Its a bit long–just over an hour.
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Here is where you get to interrupt me. This is an article literally talking about the two witnesses but glosses right over them and them grabs and hugs Michael as the restrainer.
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Here is another 10 minute overview video of Michael as the Restrainer i found:
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And I’ll conclude with this 13 minute video of Michael as the restrainer:
Blessings
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