A Dead Faith was never really a Faith to begin with.
Has nothing to do with working for your salvation.
It’s an idiom that calls a “Professed Faith without any core change in the individual” a Hypocrisy and an Oxymoron.
1 Like
Correct. For now it isn’t the mark, however, it is heart breaking it is dividing Christians, family and friends.
4 Likes
FWIW, Andy Woods is doing a series on the book of James in his mid-week service. I find some of the things he’s bringing out quite interesting. The book of James really isn’t about “getting saved” at all. It’s about, “now that you’re saved, let’s talk about how to become a useful person in the Lord’s service”. James is talking to a group of people who are already saved. I’m sure they questioned, “Now what?” And James says, “I’m glad you asked.” The apostle John does a splendid job of bringing people to belief in Jesus and coming to full Salvation. James picks up where that leaves off.
It is my opinion that using James to insinuate specific works being required for salvation is a misuse of the book of James. Again, my opinion. Others may disagree.
4 Likes
I agree very much so, and is my opinion also. 
3 Likes
Bless your heart Ed. I love you brother. And i commend your defending spirit. Amen. I honor and celebrate that every believer should first trust on the Lord Jesus Christ, be in his word, be in prayer…and if you have time…listen to a pastor. I believe the Spirit pours forth most actively when we seek His heart and desire to know Him (not theology) deeply. I applaud your heart toward not allowing men’s opinions to influence what the Spirit is moving us toward in our hearts. In fact, I know this is rather ironic, but my intentions of sharing varying views is not to sell anyone on a view. Even when it is my own I believe God is showing me or indicating more weight in that direction. But I think the sharpening happens and sparks fly when it causes our hearts to be challenged and think deeply. Not to settle on what so and so says. And it is my sincerest desire for any new believers to binge on the word. Become your own concordance. Know that word intuitively (where to turn, where to look in the word for this or that). Saturating our hearts and minds on the life giving Word of the Spirit should be like on an IV drip as one on life support. Amen!!!
But I also believe that part of the sharpening and growth process is knowing that every theologian (pastor or teacher or otherwise) has their POV. Sharpening can well be a beautifying process. Newbees will have things come at them. To start off cutting our teeth against the trends or fads I see more as that which forms antibodies. Ephesians 4:14 is a well known scripture. But what is that a result of?
"As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of people, by craftiness [i]in deceitful scheming"
“Teachers” are a part of the foundational ground work the spirit uses to ween believers from being tossed about. I applaud your concern for my posting varying takes on Michael as the restrainer. As I think about it brother, it would not be a bad idea for me to come up with a disclaimer at points of interjection as such. Maybe something like:
. . . . .
DICLAIMER: I believe that no matter what theological point I steer toward, I am more of an advocate of Proverbs 4:7: The beginning of wisdom is to acquire wisdom. Acquire understanding with all that you have. We are not to be tossed about by every wind of doctrine. I believe scripture encourages us to gain wisdom by understanding what is out there and what are the things we can learn or learn the skill of how to discern sharper what to throw out. As we are all onto the practice of this, please note the following is my opinion or a take worth knowing what is out there, encouaging deeper research to understand how perspectives compliment or contrast how the Living Spirit of God is refining discernment within your own walk. We are all to take ownership of our discernment as we sharpen our capacity to refine maturing accoutrements of our hearts (the eyes of our hearts Eph 1:18) to most effectively 2 Cor 10:5 We are destroying arguments and all arrogance raised against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ
. . . . .
Please Consider: I WISH SOMEONE WOULD HAVE CHALLENGED ME AS A BABE
I have some friends that are Charismatics. I was one when I first came to the faith. The environment i grew up in was very vague and discerning the word in faith had its times of revealing and its times of struggle as well. During the time I was in that movement, I had no idea one could study the word of God. That opened a whole new world to me.
THE VALUE OF REASONABLY CONSIDERING OUR OWN CONTEXT
I concur whole heartedly with your desire and courage to protect newer believers from potential error. Taking what ultra subjective confusion that seemed to embrace me while in the Charismatic movement out of the equation for a moment, and retargeting it upon the notions and focus I became accustomed to (a seemingly sounder and more rooted approach). I present the following previous case study from a recent camp of my own, the Reformation. I am sure the Puritans lived by faith. They traveled a great distance to start their own churches away from the mandates of England. They built cities and were incredibly involved in their communities and teaching and training. Their level of faith seemed to be a gem period looking back upon it through the epoch corridors of church history. Their end came suddenly when their faith turned to evil suspicions. Today, we don’t have that concern in the church at large, amen. But there are historic case and point warnings of that kind of thing that can happen when we do not consider our own context.
WHAT A LIVING HERMENEUTIC LOOKS LIKE
For example, a missionary could just jump on a boat AND go somewhere and start ministering. And God may well use that. But as we no longer live under Kings and Queens and we have much rich heritage provided (including the notions we have today about the bible since modern interpretational methods, archeological finds, and further discovery through social interaction of the ages), it would be good to know the language, the culture, some history, customs, and taboos of that culture we would become a mission of. And in that way, having been invested into the love, care, and concern for those people and their context, God would use that all the more…because of the care and dedication to getting ready to be best used of God.
THE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD HAS PROVIDED FOR US TO BE SHAPRENED AND GROW
In a similar way, we have exegetical teaching. Knowing the historical context, culture, idioms, conflicts, beliefs, customs etc. of the first century and the biblical books we are studying helps provide our due diligence in preparing our hearts having put forth the valuable care and attention due our sacred letters of antiquity. Today we have some great teaching from the pulpits. But not all pastors will agree. We have so many different denominations due to differences pastors sees in the word of God. Beyond pastors, scholars with doctoral level studies (focusing on specific periods, themes, or historical contexts) can be helpful to provide exegetical insight on what a passage means. I believe it is wrong to rely upon any man or any pastor to interpret the word for us. But then we also have scripture telling us something I believe for us to be in the practice of active learning and growing sharpening and being sharpened:
Ephesians 4:10-16
He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) 11 And He gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as [d]pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the [e]saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the [f]knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature [g]which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 [h]As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of people, by craftiness [i]in deceitful scheming; 15 but [j]speaking the truth in love, [k]we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, that is , Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together [l]by what every joint supplies, according to the [m]proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love
Please Consider: GOD USES THE BODY UPON ITSELF AS SIGNIFICANT MEANS TO “TEACH” TOO
I believe each individual has their own unique personal relationship with God. We are all gifted differently. And each of us has something different to bring to the church body table. I believe God will teach by His spirit through His word…for He has told us this. But I also believe Ephesians 4 is also from the same spirit. Throughout history there has always been a danger of personal interpretation. Cults and aberrant Christian secs have been based on individuals who stray too far from orthodoxy because of insights they perceive from God. So some measure of due diligence in preparing us for the context of what we are looking at would also be how God would minister to us through His spirit.
Now some of those teachers would be theologians, historians, linguistic experts, those who have studied ancient cultures, languages, and a wide range of other considerations. God has provided these people, "teachers, including pastors to equip us to also equip each other…and that is how the spirit works according to the word of God too. We are more accountable in our day and age than ages of the past because so much more has been uncovered, discovered, or revealed now. It is also honoring to God in serving Him with all our minds to invest our interest in what developments He has permitted also to help us understand complimentarily or in contrast.
Below is a 5 minute video that briefly goes over the historic periods of how different ages interpreted the word of God. And I would imagine each of these eras had faith too. When we look at history and biblical interpretation approaches we discover that different periods in time approached the word much differently than we do today.
Prerabbinic Jewish Interpretation (150 B.C.E.-70 C.E.)
Patristic Interpretation and Its Allegorgate Legacy (150-1500 C.E.)
Rabbinic Interpretation and Its Legacy (150-1500 C.E.)
Modern Interpretation (1500-Present)
Late Modern Interpretation (1970-Present)
For Example: PATRISTIC INTERPRETATION AND ITS ALLEGORGATE LEGACY
“The close reading of the Bible by early Christian exegetes can be some of the most rewarding, but also some of the most confusing, portions of patristic literature. This is because they simply do not approach textual study in the same way we do as late moderns or as post-moderns. In particular, the allegorical reading of texts can be quite alienating, even absurd, to those unprepared for the very different logic of the early church fathers.” https://bit.ly/3fmbXNl
RESCUING THE GOSPEL FROM THE SPIRIT OF THE AGE
Ed, if you were alive during the Patristic Allegorizing period you would have disagreed with your views of how to understand scripture today–SEVERLY. Yet you would have been trusting God and walking and reading and studying in faith. Now I believe that we can see absurd sorts of allegory in scripture and God still using it in a way to graciously and perhaps even supernaturally impart truth unto our hearts. But to say that men who had faith seeing absurd allegory in the scriptures is “wiser” than trusting the spirit to lead us as our hearts diligently do our homework (working hard and diligently to be an approved workman skilled at discerning scripture) is far more the gist of proverbs I believe. As I have studied varies theories it has helped me to know what literary and exegetical real world tools are available to consider valuable upon scripture. To avoid this, I think is every bit as dangerous as you may feel it is for a new believer to encounter theology you may not side with or believe has merit. I am not saying that every believer needs to go to seminary. I didn’t. And much of what I understand now about scripture is much sweeter and simpler than massive theological constructs in many cases. But because of the influences that are out there whereas we think we might be thinking for ourselves or relying on the spirit, knowing what is circling out there and how to defend for or against it is meant to sharpen the body…and the way one can free the gospel and the truth contained within scripture in how the Spirit intends for it to be understood…sometimes…takes a lot of work. And that notion should be jealously protected as well brother…or at least, I believe so.
OT Intro 5: The Strange History of Hermeneutic - YouTube 5 Minute Video Overview
If Interested–these articles go into a bit more depth about how biblical interpretation has changed dramatically over the centuries. If we were alive a thousand years ago…we would not have nearly the ways we are thinking upon scripture today. And if we think we are right today, I think we are correct. But if we thought that it was just the spirit leading us to allegorize everything 1,000 years ago…I think we would have been mistaken. I realize it is not by our intellect that we are informed in the spirit according to His word. But ideologies are a prime directive for the enemy…and if we don’t know what those are, we may be leaving a lot of riches in the kingdom to come on the table. Just asking you to please consider because this is a very serious issue brother. It took me 3 years in the faith to realize that we can actually study the bible. I am all for how the spirit teaches us as we trust upon His word. But I am also a staunch advocate of acquiring knowledge as the spirit that teaches us tells us to do that in His very own word. Blessings.
Proverbs 1:5
A wise man will hear and increase in learning,
And a man of understanding will acquire wise counsel,
Jeremiah 3:15
“Then I will give you shepherds after My own heart, who will feed you on knowledge and understanding.
Proverbs 22:17
Incline your ear and hear the words of the wise,
And apply your mind to my knowledge;
Proverbs 23:12
Apply your heart to discipline
And your ears to words of knowledge.
Philippians 1:9
And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment,
Proverbs 1:4
To give prudence to the naive,
To the youth knowledge and discretion,
Exodus 31:3
I have filled him with the Spirit of God in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all kinds of craftsmanship,
2 Peter 1:5
Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
1 Corinthians 14:6
But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what will I profit you unless I speak to you either by way of revelation or of knowledge or of prophecy or of teaching?
A Brief History of Biblical Interpretation – DR. RELUCTANT. Generic Overview
Timeline of hermeneutics | Speechless Detailed Overview
2 Likes
Sounds like Andy I heard this too from Charles Bing’s excellent doctoral dissertation (sold in paperback), “Lordship Salvation.” I am thrilled to hear Andy sees it similarly. Amen.
Genuine questions and respectful discussions about the Bible and the specific teachings of this ministry are allowed, however polemics against this ministry’s sound biblical teachings are not.
Once I figured out what polemics was, it was smooth sailing. 
polemics
n.
The art or practice of argumentation or controversy.
n.
The practice of theological controversy to refute errors of doctrine.
n.
The art or practice of disputation; controversy; specifically, that branch of theology which is concerned with the history or conduct of ecclesiastical controversy: the word more particularly denotes offensive as distinguished from defensive controversy.
Thank you for your reply, I am going back to just trying to be loving, to all. The whole question came up about a post from the Book of Thomas, and someone quoting it, still not sure where we stand on that, but, all is well with me. Thank you Twi 
Doc
p.s. You guys are doing a great job 
8 Likes
namdoc you’ve always been a great presence here and I just want to say it seems to me that you have grown to be particularly seasoned with salt over the past few months. you’ve just really gotten an even more refreshing spirit lately. the Lord has performed a great unique work in you that I haven’t noticed in anyone else here. want to let you know I’ve been moved by how much you have been moved to grow in the Spirit. you have been softer and sweeter more than ever, on a regular basis, and it is inspiring me to grow the same way. very glad you’re here!
7 Likes
Sounds a little too much like the accusing adversary we are all up against.
1 Like
When making alphabet soup, the practice of putting in too many noodles should be avoided.
~a jack’ism
3 Likes
LOL!! I hear ya!! Don’t ya just love big words??
FWIW, I love hearing Andy mention them and kinda “knock them down a peg or two”. Most of those big words that get tossed about in theology aren’t really as big as they sound, nor infallible as they sound, nor are they necessarily as impressive as they make themselves out to be. It can be kinda humorous at times as you see those who don’t really know what they mean do the “ooh, wow!” thing while others who do kinda chuckle at those who are impressed, probably knowing they once were right there with 'em.
Not making fun of anyone, honest, just finding the humor in we humans. God definitely has a sense of humor! (And I’m lookin’ forward to seeing and hearing much more of that when we’re all safely home.)
4 Likes
I have to often find a balance where I live.
I grew up in CA, learned a large vocabulary, college level, etc.
Large long words… or the other problem of too many words… 
I start talking around here and the locals let out big sighs and turn their attentions elsewhere.
Sometimes they get offended.
It’s why I really appreciate the Parables of Jesus. Association to real world examples carries you a long way.
3 Likes
I am one that has to stop and look up the meanings; then guaranteed, chuckle at myself.
1 Like
Beautifully and wisely spoken.
7 Likes
And no doubt is why Jesus used parables and direct and simple associations.
Excellent and humble approach!
8 Likes
@Saved-by-Grace I just did a study on 1 Corinthians 2. JD’s videos on it are of course an awesome supplement, worth digging up on youtube (I don’t think they’re on the website yet) 
Phewwww… and yeah, words. big, small, they’re all too much for me sometimes. 
Polemics comes from the greek word meaning war, so it’s not just a discussion or opinion, it basically turns the opposing idea into an enemy to destroy. Might be too big of a word for the code of conduct, but we have the internet at our fingertips, and really, that you don’t come into someone’s home and make war with them should be common sense, so I guess we’ll see.
8 Likes
Okay you made me giggle.
MARANATHA!
1 Like
Thanks Ed. I appreciate your reply. And to a degree of course we do agree. My point though is not to infer that believers need to be scholarly or involved in in-depth research. For the spirit may well work upon a heart that far exceeds the insights of any scholar or any research known to man. For the spirit is fully capable. Nor was it to pose intimacy with the spirit against being some kind of scholar. Heaven forbid. 
For I do not see that it is one vs. the other, for the word is sufficient itself to proclaim both perspectives. To overly insist upon deep research or its opposite are equally phantoms of human perspective and limitation. For the one who said: “nothing but Christ and Him crucified” also said Hebrews 5:12-14:
For though [i]by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the [j]elementary principles of the actual words of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to distinguish between good and evil.
Our new believers have no stake in that verse, I well understand and have great empathy in that. And to the extend it is a ministry to help newer believers not bother with things perhaps to look upon at another time, I say “amen.” And I understand…for there is that ministry. But at least in America there is a concern of some trends where people who don’t want to bother weighing things out might become unreasonably weighted in their own senses of convictions not having given effort and charity of their heart to the consideration of how others might think on those things. And in a situation like that, I do not see it as spiritual vs. intellectual but a rather a moratorium of sorts placed upon reasons to not have a charitable heart towards another’s views (or that any effort might be reasonable to selflessly consider where others are coming from or how they got there). And unfortunately we might in our day and age (often slated as 2 Tim 3:1-5) mistake our preferred understood comfort zones for a true virtue of spiritually arrived convictions. This is somewhat an epidemic in the western church. But to the extent an encouragement be offered to preserve the integrity of where a person simply is in the Lord and for them to grow in grace and not by means of some academic obstacle course, amen. But I would say a tension of permitting ones heart to be challenged in growth (from any level of maturity) does coexist with as much as your heart is inclined toward the protection of the simplicity of the gospel and how a believer is truly edified. Amen. But these are both of the same spirit. They are not in conflict.
I do not believe that your concern for this is in error at all brother. But where I would caution is that the simplicity of what scripture is saying is not something subject to ways of how we might have theological convictions on, for example lets say, something like the restrainer. Those are two entirely different issues. And although we may see things about the restrainer differently, a concern for the simplicity of scripture is right and beautiful. But I do not believe is wise to be tempted to conflate that with how it might bolster any particular theological conviction we have on that issue “instead.” For there may be other considerations someone may (who also is involved with the simplicity of scripture) come to see differently on that same issue as well.
To equate our walking with the spirit to infer we have the only (or at least preferred) correct biblical view on a thing, although could be correct, is also something in being correct the spirit would provide humble charity regarding…and not presume it is the preferred answer "necessarily.’ There may be a lot of sweat and tears in some offshore research that may have put in the time in prayer and fasting and deep non-academic soaking in of the word that God might have also imparted some helpful things to genuinely understand about a text–even if it ends up in academic form. To suggest that can’t be the case and our conviction be more inspired, potentially, is not exactly what I think you wish to convey. I don’t see that is where your heart is coming from. I would say as I consider to be more careful in helpfully detailing where that something I share as theological might have merit that I also qualify its potential limitations…and that God might certainly have more or other on that–that you also as one walking in the spirit and by faith might equally recognize your potential limitations in your own perspectives as well. For that would be a fruit of faith in walking in the spirit. For in walking in faith the fruit that would accompany that would rightly distinguish a protection of new believers from the convincing of a preferred theological leaning of our own. Or at least that is how I might be won over. Or how I understand it. Would you see differently?
If that makes sense 
…however circus like it might be to say it like that…lol. Blessings.
1 Like
Unless, your hiding the foulness of the soup, without the addition of many noodles to cover it, hoping the eater won’t notice. Pass the garlic croutons 
2 Likes
Was more about not making long winded comments on my part. Not easy sometimes, depending on the topic.