Could we be wrong?

I hate to ask this, but it’s been weighing on me for some time. Is there a chance we could be wrong about a pre trib rapture? I have been of the pre trib belief for over 30 years. Before I continue, just want you to know that I believe we are in no way appointed to God’s wrath…but what if it’s mid trib?..things that are making me wonder about this are due to the many hundreds of comments I have been reading over the last month…things like- “well, we know these vaccines aren’t to do with the mark, because we wouldn’t still be here”…or “we don’t need to worry about anything we take right now, because that’s for the people left in the tribulation”
Anyway, to me, we are seeing what the mark is about to be…most likely the Quantum Dot Tatto? It has everything in it that would fit the biblical description, imo…&
from what I’m reading about it, it will be the replacement for these current vaccine passports…because they can be lost, stolen, forged, etc. I feel like we are choosing, right now, the world, or God.
I can see there might be a huge falling away if we start seeing some major tribulation events start to happen while we are still here. Some would be disillusioned, others angry, and a lot just confused as to why they are still here. The tribulations saints that suffer, don’t really sound like new, baby Christians to me…maybe because they aren’t?!..& a spotless and pure bride would be purified through fire, right?..anyway, please don’t bash me…I’m just
thinking aloud & wondering if any of you have considered this also?

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Possible but not likely. We were given signs of the lead up to the last 7 years. What we see now are those signs. This is nothing close to what life on earth will be after the Church is gone. These are but warning signs to those who are to close to the world and not close enough to Jesus. We are a stiff necked people and sometimes, most of the time it takes a sharp whack upside the head to get our attention. As bad as things are now, this is not even close to how bad it is going to be in that last 7 years. One thing to remember is that we are not yet under a one world government with a single person calling all the shots. Until that happens this is still warning time. When that happens literally all hell will be breaking loose.

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May I say that we are NOT in the Tribulation yet. :slight_smile: :heart:

What we are seeing is the shadows of the things to come. The pieces have to be in place for it to come, and it will not come until the AC is revealed. We are removed before that moment.

In these our days, the days of the transition from Philadelphia to Laodicea, above all, I hold fast to this promise:


Revelation 3:10-11

Because you have kept My command to persevere (patiently endure),
I will also keep you from the hour of testing (trial or tribulation)
that is about to come upon the whole world,
to test those who dwell on the earth.

I am coming soon.
Hold fast to what you have (your faith),
so that no one will take your crown. (2 Tim 4:8)

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I hope this won’t come across in the wrong tone, but have you studied the doctrine of the Rapture in detail? Having come away from a religious group that doesn’t believe in a Rapture, only a Second Coming, it was a subject that I really wanted to go deep into. Many people just don’t get that deep.

One pastor that has really been helpful to me is Andy Woods. He has a current series going on that I believe is coming close to being finished up. It’s been the topic at Sunday School for much of the last year. So far, there are 43 lessons and each is about an hour long. His style tends towards a LOT of review so it can seem like you’re never going to get through the series, but I have found it to be very helpful in settling my mind over whether it’s right. He even goes into the arguments and proof texts that people often throw up in support of other views and goes through why he teaches what he does in light of those things. I think he spent a month or more on just going through why Matt 24 and 25 are not about the Rapture.

Anyway, just a suggestion, and only meant in love.

Blessings!

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This is very important to keep in mind. Thanks Jack :slight_smile:

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Amen: we are not in the tribulation yet. :slight_smile:

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Andy is good. I agree the rapture is not in Matt 24 & 25. Amen. Good recommendation. Brian, are all those sermons about the rapture? 43?

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Hi @1jewel

Would just echo @BrianT in his recommendation of Andy Woods of Sugarland Bible Church. He has a very measured, calm approach to the emotive and highly contested area of Bible Prophecy as it concerns the Rapture and Tribulation events.

Of course JD Farag is also measured in his teaching that we are not yet in the Tribulation but we can see with increased and rapid clarity the convergence and emergence of the conditions requisite for the end times.

@TCC - All 43 videos are concerning the Rapture and include responses/rebuttals to various doctrinally diverse positions such as Mid/Post-Trib etc.

Hope some of these replies and the guidance of the great Holy Spirit steered Pastors we have in people like JD Farag and Andy Woods help settle your spirit Jewel.

As ever, stay in the light of God’s Word and test all things for yourself.

1 Thessalonians 5

The Day of the Lord

5 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.

21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

In Christ

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That’s where I’m at right now too, but I will read over the things by Andy Woods also.
Last night, I was reading Revelation… & chapters 12 & 13 kinda threw me off…it really sounded like the first 3 1/2 years, we are still here, but I have more studying to do.
I just don’t want my faith in shambles if we end up being here for the first half…I want to be gaining spiritual strength now, to be able to die for the truth if He asks me to. I don’t want to do what Peter did!

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Yes! The whole series is on the Rapture. It’s as though Andy knew what I needed and so far has gone down pretty much every bunny trail along the way. Most recently, he’s been going through mid-trib, post-trib, and pre-wrath views and why he believes what he does about those views. About the only thing that seems to be missing, at least to my thinking, is a thorough look at amillennialism, Perhaps that’s a further away bunny trail than he was intending but to me, it’s relevant in that it tends to skew the doctrine of the Rapture. Then again, I’ve mentioned that to Andy and the series isn’t over yet. He does have other teaching on that specific subject.

Andy is not charismatic at all. He has a dry sense of humor (which I appreciate), and his sermons are often a lot like sitting in a college class. And that’s the kind of teaching / preaching that reaches me personally. I know some people like the growlin’ and snarlin’ and the preachers that hop around and all but go “Cujo” on their congregations. LOL!! Not me. Those kind make me very uncomfortable. But those who just teach, those are the ones I tend to learn the most from.

Occasionally, I’ll disagree somewhat with something Andy might say. But often, those things are minor and sometimes, I think some of those are perhaps innocent and unintentional misstatements on his part. I’m guessing his brain gets a little ahead of his tongue at times, but I won’t fault him for that.

Of the few churches I think I would actually enjoy attending, his is one of them. If it weren’t a 10 hour drive… (sigh)…

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Either I’m taking up space, or I’m being lazy, but I’d like to give you the transcript from June 14,2020 Prophecy Update from Farag, He references Woods as well.

And instead of reading the transcript, you could always listen to or watch (depending on where you look) the video to the update. It might help you a little bit.

https://cckministries.com/sermonlibrary?SERIES=00-PRU&SERMON=1835

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You have every reason to question and ask and wonder
I’m sure there are many many Christians that are of the same thinking as you
I think a lot of Christians aren’t questioning this or the rapture because nothing like this as happened
I am 58 and can remember as a boy listening to Barry smith and thinking wow but never thinking it would happen in our lifetime but agreeing with others that it would happen because we can big things up when we are not in them
I hope and pray now that we will go before. I feel we are so close to the tribulation that if we are going it’s going to be very soon
Hang tight to the hope we have in Jesus and trust we are going
Bless you see ya on flight :airplane: 777

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Thank you Jonboy-uk🙏

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Never feel alone or that you are the only one
Your honesty as given you the courage to post your question and get some response but through it all never lose sight of the master he never loses sight of us and he knows our fears before we do
Bless ya

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Hi 1jewel. I believe your concern is a sign of a healthy thought. I believe in the pre trib rapture. But I am constantly always open to be challenged. That openness has literally only strengthen my resolve about the pre trib rapture. Not only have I been open to be wrong, but when I do research, I only want to do it if the following occurs: “If I take time to look at this, can I honesty feel, sense, and believe in some full measure and real way what the potentials are here of me being wrong? Am I willing to change some major theological positions about the rapture if the truth leads me elsewhere?” Sometimes I would quickly research something to confirm or deny a relative point. But I can ask questions like the above because I have become that fearless about the issue. I have listened to at least 15 hours of solid heavy hitting debate on the rapture, and within the past 6 months I allowed myself to be challenged about a position I never thought valid: The 7th Trumpet Rapture. How’s that for scary? Lol.

THE 7TH TRUMPET RAPTURE
I actually had a post in this forum on that journey. Or better, that journey was a “topic.” My first. And it was helpful to ask for help from this forum to go through it. I never had the concern about a 7th Trumpet rapture before. But there was some new info I came across and asked for help…for i could see it honestly as a possibility. I learned a lot, I believe, about tribulation timing I was not as familiar with. In addition, I learned how going through that process just strengthened my resolve about the pre trib rapture position. But it was important and helpful to walk through it. For if it proved more accurate than not, I would permit myself to lean in that position. But it did not hold up against what else it could be I was seeing that seemed valid as well as a more reasonable position. It gets very nuanced, but one piece of helpful info is that Israel picks up the mantle for God at the midpoint (seemingly). So did that mean the church takes the first half? There seemed to be an opening. I think that is what the Two Witnesses are for. Once they are gone, the 144k take over.

WHEN KNOWLEDGE DOUBLES EVERY 12 HOURS
I think it is good to see where things are going eventually. I think it is wise and good to have a sense about how events of today avalanche into the tribulation economy. But the number of the beast won’t be a thing until 3.5 years of real supernatural tribulation. And that, after the abomination of desolation speaks. We have precursors of what a mark might look like or how it comes about. But technology will double every 12 hours (a likely projection by experts) once we are hooked up to the Internet of Things (IoT). If even a year of that approaches the mid trib, what we knew at the beginning of that year would be very different than what would come a month from then, much less 12 months. If we have a year of doubling knowledge every 12 hours…then we would be 730 times (730 %) more informed than we were at the beginning of that year. To have exacting detail of a mark (even that close to it) may be somewhat light years away from its actual form. It is good, however, today, to see a bridge forming between this age and the next one (the tribulation), amen.

THE CONVERGENCE OF SIGNS / BELIEFS
We all have different senses about where we are at exactly on the prophetic timeline. I believe the rapture could happen anytime this year (according to the Beresheet prophecy theory or TOL Thinking Out Loud about the Rapture channel on Youtube). 2021 lines up with a lot of prophecy watchers. However, through my own research (no one knows for sure) I would guesstimate the trib starting in 2024. Where I do agree with you on this point is that I don’t think how things unfold is exactly how the church will be tracking. For example, I don’t think we are in a headlong deep dive into the One World Globalist Government forming successfully. I think we could be, and it looks like it…that is for sure. But I don’t think its the globalist time yet (from my own research). I think that likely re-occurs at the second seal. I believe the tribulation starts at the second seal, not the first. I can harmonize that with Daniel 9:27, but I can’t exactly harmonize that with Revelation chapter 4. There are ways I think harmonies exist with Rev 4, but I admit that is a tougher row to ho than Daniel 9:27 being a start point while also seal 2 not 1 being a tribulation kickoff. In any case, my take is that the direction things will be taking here in the short term are going to throw a lot of people way off…lol. Perhaps myself included. :slight_smile:

WORDPLAY
Concave mirrors make things look closer than they appear. I think that is where we are. I don’t think we are decades but years off. That is my take. I believe there will be a ton of positions about things occurring and what they mean. This is a good time to be in the word deeply. I believe this is actually something God would want us to get a grip on. There will be many things looking this way or that way…but keeping our focus on Him and secondly the potential meaning of things (and in that order) will be at a heightened point likely due to all the variant takes. My view is that COVID will fade, and globalism will be scolded into the corner for a minute. I could be wrong, but that is where 4 years of research points to. If by chance that does occur, it is likely far more reason to be ready…not because of totalitarian crackdown, but because of the lateness of the hour indicated by pushback. In any case, either way…it seems to be a time of confusion coming upon us…even likely confusion for the church. So the scenario of those not certain what to think, yeah, I think there would be a lot of that too, likely. If true, it might be a time of great differences within the church that might make what we have seen look mild. I am not of the school of thought that believes Matt 24 follows a seals path or that the tribulation starts out with the strong delusion. I don’t believe the focus element approaching the trib is “deception” but rather “revelation,” as in the book…approaching…and God making us aware of this reality through word play within our world and her unfolding events.

THE BOOK OF REVELATION & PACING
What helped me the most in getting an overall sense is finally (after like 20 years) taking a serious look at the book of Revelation. I was never interested until recently. To me, there are too many opinions about that book from a commentary perspective. So i ditched all that for the moment and just read through it and through it again several times. Then I developed an outline just to see patterns. Then read and re-read again and again. After several weeks of that things seemed to take shape and make a bit of sense. From what I have discovered about that book that might be helpful in this is the following:

Based on Rev 1:19

1 Things you have seen.
2-3 Things that are.
4-22 Things to come.

4-5 Trib preamble in heaven
6-7 The 7 seals
8-9 The 7 Trumpets
10 Midpoint (Inauguration of Israel 144k)
11-12 From beginning of trib to midpoint (or just past mid point)
13 From mid point to just past mid point (hyper focus)
14, 15, 16, 19 The mid point AND to end of tribulation
17, 18 Possibly Babylon in 1st / 2nd half (or two vantage points of mid to end of trib)

Knowing this is how the book is structure it helped me categorize more easily where things along the timeline likely occur. From what I have gathered the seals and trumpets all go off by the mid point. And from the mid point to the end is bowl judgements. That is what the timeline looks like to me (I see trumpets come out of 7th seal, and bowls come out of 7th trumpet).

REVELATION AND THE RAPTURE
Hopefully this can be helpful. But ironically the best timing of the rapture i believe is Rev 12. I see Rev 15:1, 12:3-4, and 12:1-2 as 3 signs in the heavens relating to bowls, trumpets, and seals. Rev 15:1 confirms that celestial signs can relate to judgement cycles (there is only 3 celestial signs and only 3 judgement cycles–barring of course the final end sign of the sign of the Son of Man…also in the sky). In Rev 12 we have 2 signs and their story. I believe there is a difference between the sign and its story. The woman and child is not ominous and appear to occur during the age of grace (comparatively a non-ominous era). The child appears to go up before the mid point. But it is also likely a sign belonging to seals…so even then much earlier than the mid point (for trumpets would likely take us a quarter of the tribulation to meet up with the mid point). The red dragon does not seem to persecute until after the child is raptured, which indicates that the child is raptured early on along the seals path (my conviction is after seal 1 or at seal 1 but gone by seal 2). Since seal 5 is persecution, and the devil does not get at the child, we would certainly need to be gone by the 5th seal. And since the 5th seal is persecutions, it is doubtful that the rapture would happen right before persecution (perhaps a possibility). I don’t get the sense the church is here for all 4 horsemen. Just the first one. Like I said Revelation 4 seems to contradict this view if John’s being called up to heaven is a picture of the rapture (in heaven before the scroll is opened). The only potential outlier in that both seal 1 and the woman and child are not ominous. Everything else in the judgement cycles and celestial signs (barring the Son of Man sign) is ominous. Perhaps the 1st seal and 1st sign have a relationship. And maybe the poetic design of both being non-ominous might infer a poetical matching of sorts. I more so come to this determination based on 4 years of research of how things might likely play out currently.

But in any case, to answer your questions, yes I do think about and consider it. And nothing I have seen putting myself in the most severe debate structures possible have seemed more biblical than the pretrib rapture. Blessings.

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Personally speaking, and the Lord knows this, I have a distinct aversion to multi-coloured horses, judgemental seals and unclean frogs.

So… Maranatha!

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Thank you :heart:…I’m not as studied up as some here, so I’ve got a lot to learn…but I don’t think God would be angry at me for searching out the matter, to see if these things are so. I truly hope the pre trib peeps are the correct peeps though, lol

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Lol, me too!!..but then my OCD mind won’t let me rest there…it immediately goes to the Jews during WW11, and I think, ya, I bet they probably had an aversion to ovens and trains also.
Or I think of all of our brothers and sisters ,around the world, who have died horrible deaths for the truth…then I think, why not me?..being part of His body, I’m thinking we will all die a martyrs death?..either slowly, or quickly…I think in Romans it says that if we die with Him, we will be raised with Him. And in Ephesians it says we were placed in Him before the foundation of the world, therefore we are partakers of His sufferings. Idk…back to studying…

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I too am thankful God never created the “hypershift color horse.”

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What color is that?? Lol…okay, I just looked it up…kind of iridescent & multi colored? Pretty

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