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Just a clarification on this point. The word used in this parable (Matt. 25:1,3,4,7,8) for âlampâ (a small vessel containing oil with a wick) would be better translated as âtorchâ (a large stick the head of which is wrapped with a rag). It is quite distinct from the word used to indicate an actual lamp in the NT. In v3 those with âno oilâ only have the torch (stick with the rag). Similarly the word âtrimmedâ (v7) would be better translated as âpreparedâ or âput in orderâ as we are not talking about a wick here. The act of preparing this type of lighting involves unwinding the rag, soaking it in oil, rewinding it, and lighting it. Thus there are the group with torches and oil and the group with only torches.
I think this parable is a deceptively difficult one, perhaps intentionally so by Christ. There is certainly much dissent over it. I take it to mean the division between those raptured (according to faith) vs those left behind (without faith). It is interesting to note the further difference in the summary by Christ as âI know you notâ (v12) vs that given to the Pharisees as âI never knew youâ (Matt. 7:23). Perhaps this is a further hint that the virgins without oil, despite missing the rapture, still have an opportunity to know Christ by becoming a tribulation saint? Clearly a virgin with no oil is preferred over a Pharisee.
Anyway, I thought this may be of interest to the thread. God bless.
Hi, P. Faraq is absolutely correct with his view on Last Days. In Daniel prophetic explanation to Nebuchadnezzar of his nightmare dream Daniel said that the final kingdom before Godâs Kingdom was made off by iron and clay, which is the current kingdom of computer age. For computer is made of iron and silicon chip which is the main substance of clay. (Daniel 2: 41-43). Daniel said that during those days of kings of that last kingdom of feet from iron and clay there will be attempts to combine the iron and clay ( read computer technology) with âseed of menâ (read with human DNA) but it will fail and God will destroy all of their efforts and kingdom (Daniel 2:43-45). That is the mark of time when God establishes His Kingdom and we are now in that period of time.
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Thanks Owen. You do some very good research. I donât actually find the rapture at all in Matthew. The 10 virgins is an analogy comparing what the kingdom is like. Just before this, we see: Matt 24:45+. Definitely a warning to the Jews, I would see. These analogies can, to me, all seem to be dealing with the point of Christâs physical return upon the earth. I do see Luke 21:34 as a potential rapture allusion. Jesus did know at the beginning of Matt 24 that the Jewish temple will be destroyed. This would likely mean the Father permitted the Son to know their ultimate rejection. In light of that, Christ would know that the ten virgins would be referring to His return at a time the Jews would be the focus (Jacobs Trouble). If true, and it would appear so to be, the virgins without oil would be an analogy of Israel not remaining with God for so longâŚbut also that even with all the major goings on during the tribulation, some Jews will not be expecting Messiah. Kind of hard to conceive. But that will be the epitome of deceptive times.
On top of that, I learnt parables are meant to convey one message. Instead we attach so many meanings like who are the virgins, oil, lamp in finer details etc causing confusion. Meaning we allegorize every aspect of the parable details.
I even heard some Christians used some parables of Jesus to support loss of salvation!
The foolish virgins are beliving and unbelieving Jews. Both are all asleep when Jesus comes back to earth. Those believing ones make the lamps ready with oil. The believing remmant in the Tribulation group welcomed Jesus Christ.
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2 things:
- If Christians go through the tribulation, itâs not âthe 7 year tribulationâ which is a misnomer. Not all of Danielâs 70th week are tribulations, what Jesus defines as the tribulations are only after the abomination of desolation at the halfway point, and those are cut short, not even the full remaining 3.5 years, by the coming of Jesus in the clouds after the 6th seal/after the mark of the beast but before the trumpets and vials. The tribulations are not Godâs wrath, the 5th seal has martyred saints, which why would the seals be the wrath of God on the saints? In fact the saints under the altar cry out for God to deliver His wrath on the earth, because it hasnât happened yet. The wrath of God doesnât begin until after the 6th seal in Revelation 6 (first vision), and after Jesus appears in the clouds in Revelation 14 (second vision). The tribulations are persecution by the world, not judgement from God. You absolutely need to separate the tribulations from Godâs wrath. To declare the whole 70th week as âthe tribulationsâ and equate them to Godâs wrath is a serious injustice to God, to declare that God is who got the âtribulation saintsâ murdered as part of His judgments. Itâs simply not true! Christians will go through persecution, but they will NOT go through the wrath of God that starts after the 6th seal. THAT is a promise. We are not promised however, that we wonât suffer persecution/tribulation. Weâre promised that on this world we will have tribulation.
- The purpose of Christians going through the tribulation is NOT purification, it is TESTIMONY. Christians maintaining their faith even in the face of death will SAVE many people. More than any amount of preaching and any soulwinning. It might be that more people will be saved because of the tribulations than at any other time in the world, and a lot of it will be because of the moral conviction and inspiration stemming from the treatment of Christians during the tribulations. People will understand that it is WRONG that these people are treated this way just because of their beliefs, and see the courage that Christians have in suffering and dying refusing to renounce their faith, and those people, wonât take the mark, those people may get saved. Just like the martyrs in the early Church, seeing people maintain their faith unto death got people saved âthe blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Churchâ.
Revelation 12:11
THAT is why Christians may go through the tribulations. To overcome the beast by the blood of the lamb and by their testimony and not loving their lives unto death.
Thank you! Very helpful.
Hi Jay. Thanks for your post. We differ a bit, however, I do go to a KJV only / pre-wrath rapture church currently that believes as you have shared. I am pretrib and not KJVO, but I know they love the Lord and preach His word. That is always a good place to be. My church has a book on why they believe pre-wrath raptureâŚbut my goodnessâŚthe language is very different than I have been taught. I have seen 12 hours + of rapture timing debates that are very good and solidâŚbut I have not really seen what could challenge pretribâŚat least as I am understanding it. So I am working through learning a new language to properly be talking about the same things. I was wondering your take on a few things if you might.
- Is Matt 24:29 talking about the 6th sealâŚor something else?
I see a difference in language that seems subtle but in Joel it appears there are connections made.
Moon Blood Red / Moon Darkened
Joel has 2 different accounts âblood moonâ and âmoon darkened.â All references to blood moon seem to be the 6th seal. All references to âafter the tribulationâ = moon darkened. All moon darkened imply Armageddon in Joelâs context.
Joel 2:31 / Joel 3:15-17
Reference to 6th seal is: âbefore the great and terrible day of the LordâŚâ
NOT âafter the tribulation of those days.â
Joel 3:12-14 ties Matt 24:29 with exact language to winepress Armageddon event, which biblically links this language in Matthew with Joel âas Armageddon.â Also with Rev Chapter 14 and the end time sickle judgement casting people into the winepress/supper of God/Armageddon (all same end of all tribulation great and not the great) timeframeâŚall at same timeframe.
JOEL 3:12-15
Let the nations be awakened
And come up to the Valley of [g]Jehoshaphat,
For there I will sit to judge
All the surrounding nations.
13 Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe.
Come, tread the grapes, for the wine press is full;
The vats overflow, for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of [h]decision!
For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of [i]decision.
15 The sun and moon have become dark,
And the stars have lost their brightness.
What is different in the 6ht seal is that the stars Fall âto the earthâ like unripe figs (perhaps implying that ripe figs still in the tree?) / Verses: Stars Fall from the sky (only). In Matthew and Joel 3, the stars donât fall to earth. They fall from heavenâŚor dim out.
In any case, this Joel 3 language is definitely Armageddon (Jehoshaphat, wine press, sickle, vats overflowâthis is all Rev 14/16 stuff, no?).
QUESTION 2
The two witnesses have their ministry 3.5 years prior to the 7th Trumpet. If the beast from the abyss kills them (v.7), likely from the 5th Trumpet (Rev 9:1-11) then it would appear that the antichrist can only demand worship during the abomination of desolation after the abyss is open. Rev 13:7-8 appears to link up and match 11:7 timing in notion of waring with saints = to the time he demands worshipâŚwhich would be the the middle of the week, no? Leaving 42 months left to rule? Or, how is it that the abomination of desolation is in at the midpoint when the power to demand worship would come after the 5th Trumpet? Would that not make the 6th seal much sooner than the midpoint?
I hope it makes sense what I am asking. God bless 
Amen, well said Laura. I went to a church for a very long time that taught seminary level like from the pulpit. Later in life, I have come to discover that many of their âtheological theoriesâ have some major problemsâŚproven by the mere simplicity of scripture and context itself. Plus, I think Elon Musk wants us to fear AI so we all get his nueralink Approach - Neuralink. Sometimes dumbing down is the wisest thing we can do. I know of a YT channel that believes the 1st seal is the â2 Thes 2 Strong Delusion.â And that it is a delusion of the apocalypse. So the 1st seal is the fake apoloclhypse? lol. Sometimes, more is less.
Teren, thank you for your kind words. I am more than happy to concede this point about the parable possibly being in relation to the Second Coming, rather than the rapture. As you point out it is actually about the kingdom of heaven, which these parables in Matthew indicate to be a difficult subject to say the least. My point about the rapture aspect may have sounded more dogmatic than I was intending it to. I merely had the discussion on the rapture up thread foremost in my mind and got sidetracked by this.
From my own studies I find all Christâs parables on the kingdom of heaven to be challenging and I likely did not emphasise this enough. This one on the ten virgins I find especially strange. I have read commentaries on it pointing out all sorts of unusual aspects. I did not want to go into them in my response as it would have been lengthy and ultimately somewhat inconclusive anyway, whereas the lamp vs torch aspect is more clear.
The point @dlcv makes about it being directed at the Jews I find worth considering in a qualified manner. I feel the gospels in their entirety are generally applicable to humanity as a whole. They represent differing viewpoints of the same general message and I think we can sometimes get distracted by the intended audience argument. There are intended audiences, however it can still be revealing for us (gentile) to read the message as it was directed to others (Jew) and I am certain Christ knew this would be the case, especially in relation to parables of the kingdom of heaven.
Ultimately this parable is about one group that has and another that has not. The group that has is granted entry/audience/participation and the group that has not is refused.
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What you need to understand and seem to get part of, but not fully, is that Revelation is not in chronological order, youâre correct that the testimony of the 2 witnesses happens earlier than the trumpets. Iâm not sure when exactly the 2 witnesses come in we just know their testimony is for 1260 days, they die, and after 3 days, they raise up (my speculation is also that they die after the abomination of desolation and they are raptured up with the rest of the saints).
Anyway. The main thing to see and understand in Revelation is that you do NOT have a sequence of seals, then trumpets, then the reign of the beast for 42 months, then vials, then armageddon and the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom.
Revelation 10:7 clues us that after the 7th trumpet is the end of that narrative. Which makes sense because in Revelation 11:15 Jesus has taken the world as His kingdom forever and ever. But someone reading Revelation like a chronologically ordered novel would think that Jesus hands over His kingdom to the beast for 42 months right after that! No!
What you have to see and understand, you have to rightly divide the words of truth in this case⌠is that Revelation 4-11 are one sequence of events
and Revelation 12-20 are a second sequence of events
In Revelation 6:1-11 you have Tribulations
In Revelation 6:12-17 you have the beginning of the Day of the Lord, itâs Jesus appearing in the clouds (Revelation 6:16 confirms they see Him sitting on the throne, in the clouds, every eye sees Him), itâs the rapture as described in Matthew 24:29-31, itâs the day of the lord as described in Joel 2.
In Revelation 7:1-8 you have the 144000 sealed, and the wrath of God doesnât truly start until they are sealed.
In Revelation 7:9-17 you have the results of the rapture, showing that the rapture had just taken place prior when the sun and moon darkened, the saints are in heaven praising God, having overcome the Great Tribulations.
Revelation 8-11 are the wrath of God, finishing in a great earthquake.
Revelation 11 also shows the establishment of Jesusâ kingdom on earth, and finishes with the final judgement of the dead.
So itâs a story of tribulations, rapture, wrath of God, kingdom, final judgement.
Revelation 12 does not CONTINUE this, it starts over at the birth of Christ.
Revelation 13 you have tribulations (PARALLEL to 6:1-11)
Revelation 14:1-5 you have the 144000 sealed, again the wrath does not start until they are sealed
Revelation 14:14-20 you have the beginning of the Day of the Lord, Jesus in the clouds, the rapture (first harvest, note it is done by Jesus and they are not put through the wrath of God), then the second harvest is done by an angel, not Jesus, and this harvest is put through the wrath of God (Parallel to Revelation 6:12-17)
Revelation 15 shows the results of the rapture that just took place, again, showing a timing of after tribulation but before wrath, again, saints in heaven praising God (Parallel to Revelation 7:9-17)
Revelation 16 is the wrath of God, again in the final parts having a great earthquake.
Revelation 19-20 is Jesus establishing His earthly kingdom, followed by final judgement of the dead.
So again, a narrative of tribulations, rapture, wrath of God, kingdom, and final judgement.
If you do not split it into 2 narratives and read it in Chronological order, you have 2 beginnings of the day of the Lord, you have 2 sets of 144,000, you have Jesus ruling then handing over control to the Antichrist, and you have 2 great earthquakes destroying Jerusalem after the 7th judgement of their kind, and 2 final judgements of the dead.
Another thing to see and understand is that âthe Day of the Lordâ is not literally 1 24 hour period. Isaiah 34 and Isaiah 63 are about the wrath of God, and in Isaiah 34:8 and Isaiah 63:4, Jesus interchangeably uses a day and a year interchangeably, meaning that the actual chronological length of time is not specific. Itâs just the time that God is pouring out His wrath. The 5th trumpet of the wrath of God is 5 months long, and the 6th trumpet might be 1 year, 1 month, 1 day, and 1 hour long (or at least itâs prepared for that long). I expect the great tribulations themselves to last no more than 2 years after the abomination of desolation before being cut short. Probably shorter, cause I think Godâs wrath lasts at least a year and a half if not longer.
But good catch on me being KJV, I suppose thatâs a common thing with pre wrath is that we tend to be KJV?
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correct, I wasnât meaning that it was our own courage itâs that weâre given courage by the spirit. Itâs Jesus that is our source of courage even if weâre facing martyrdom. People will see that very physically weak people who have no hope of standing up on their own, standing up for Jesus, and it will finally click for some people, âI want that source of strength tooâ. If it was our own courage, that wouldnât inspire or save anyone. God gets all the glory.
I agree with you also with Luke 12. Some Christians will be arrested, and tried, and in that hour of need, the Holy Spirit will give them their testimony, and itâs going to save peopleâs souls.
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anyway, for me, only way I could see a pre trib rapture is if there are 2 raptures, because I so strongly see the pre wrath one.
Otherwise whatâs the point of Jesus appearing in the clouds in Revelation 6:12-17 and Revelation 14:14-20, and why are there saints in Heaven praising God after having overcome tribulation in Revelation 7:9-17 and Revelation 15:2-4? The fact that a pre wrath rapture does take place is so strong that to have a pre trib would require an event on top of that and make both pre trib and pre wrath both true at the same time just for different people. Which I donât completely rule out, but the simpler explanation for me is just pre wrath.
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@K7 Hi KeeganâŚthanks for your articleâŚI have sent to some friends. Iâm glad Barry made an appearance 're the appearance of the monolithsâŚoddâŚeverything getting weirder and weiderâŚAnd that the general population actually believe all thus! There has been MASS brainwashing occurring what with TV shows movies, education etc. âŚwe keep praying!
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Hi Jay. Thanks for getting back to me. Appreciate your feed back. I must admit that I have, for most of my Christian life, stayed away from RevelationâŚit just never seemed to make senseâŚnor would it likely be anything Iâd see in my lifetime. But in 2017, everything changed. I have read it through many times. Its getting clearer.
C H R O N O LO G Y
I would differ about Chronology. Here is why. Each 7th judgement seals & of trumpets, is the next set of judgements. For example, THE 7TH SEAL: are the 7 trumpets.
8:1 When the Lamb broke the SEVENTH SEAL, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.
Then at the end of the 7 trumpets, the 7th trumpet says this:
11:19 Then Godâs temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the THE ARC OF HIS COVENANT. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.
And we pick this back up in chapter 15âŚ
v5 After this I looked, and I saw in heaven the templeâthat is, the TABERNACLE OF THE COVENANT LAWâand it was opened. 6 Out of the temple came THE SEVEN ANGELS WITH THE SEVEN PLAGUES. They were dressed in clean, shining linen and wore golden sashes around their chests.
Also we see in 15:1, the Seven Bowls are noted as the last plagues.
Seven Bowls
15I:1 saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plaguesâlast, because with them Godâs wrath is completed.
When we get to your verse, and thanks for sharing it with me, do we seen the completion of the judgements, or what do we see?
10:7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then THE MYSTERY of God is finished, as He announced to His servants the prophets.
âThe mystery of God,â not the judgement. Compared to 15:1, 15:1 is more specific about the judgment. I would go what that one. I understand chapter 10 = the 144k reinstituted witnesses as national Israel officially is back on the scene as God promised they would be. The mystery, is the fulfillment of the covenant promise to keep Israel as a notion only partially hardened (Romans 11:25), likely. So I would take âthen the mystery of God is finishedâ to, yes, be included within the scope of the seventh angel trumpet = the entire set of bowlsâŚfor they appear to come out of the 7th trumpet.
And in all likelihood, are the 7th trumpet.
I do not see seals, trumpets, the reign of the beast for 42 months, then vials.
What i see is seals, trumpets (during the beginning reign of antichrist), then vials. Trumpets are concurrent with antichrist kingdom setup, from what i can tell.
A N T I C H R I S T 
E N E R G I Z E D
As for the two witnesses, it is true we are not told when they start. But they finish just before the 7th trumpet. And they are attacked by the beast power which comes out of the 5th trumpet. My point though in this was that the antichrist does not gain power over every nation (demanding worship timeframe) until the empowerment from the beast power out of the pit in trumpet 5.
13:7 It was given power to wage war against Godâs holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
If we compare that language with 11:7 âNow when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.â
âŚwe see that Revelation is connecting âthe beast that came out of the pitâ with antichrist ability to have authority over the world where he a) kills the saints and, b) demands worship from the world. These could be unrelated timeframesâŚbut it does link them tightly by inference, and in 13:7 it directly correlates the the war against the saints language with the timeframe of demanding worshipâŚthey are in the very same verse together.
O U T L I N E & M O D U L A R N A R A T I V E
I have studied literature style extensively. I could always learn more, and admittedly, I did not go to seminary. But I did spend quite a bit of time at a church that taught seminary level from the pulpitâon a weekly bases. Seminary can be wrong. Way wrong. But I strive to understand prayerfully.
In one of my literary courses, we studied a form I had never known called modular narrative. This is a literary style that is only as old as the 19th century, but is now most commonly used in screenplay. However, there are literary styles written in this format. I believe that such a book as Revelation (and in some ways too DanielâŚand maybe others) could be written in a literary genre that of the time it is for. Since modular narrative is rather a recent literary genre, it would make sense, at least in part, for Revelation to be at least partly written and organized in this genre.
I donât see Revelation as completely chronological. But rather chronologically driven. Meaning that it has flash forward and flash back but does move generally in a linear fashion. I would outline the book of Revelation as follows:
â CHAPTERS â
1-3 churches.
4-5 Lamb worthy to open the scroll.
6 seal judgments.
7 144k with flashback (end of ch 6 = saints died in trib so far) and flash forward (end of Ch 7 = saints evangelized by 144k in the great tribulation).
8-9 Trumpets judgments.
10 Little book (possibly Daniel Unveiledâbut more likely 144K National Israel Inauguration).
11 FROM BEGINNING Two Witnesses (I see then at beginning of trib because of their death ending after 3.5 years and the one out of the pit got supernatural power to kill them 5th seal area of time).
12 FROM BEGINNING OF TRIBULATION TO MIDDLE
13 From Dragon Landing to number of the beast.
14 FROM THE MIDDLE Interlude focus on144k INNAGURATION after being sealed and protected during trumpets.
ALSO â 3 warnings to come & peek preview (flashforward) of reapers during the battle of Armageddon (which happens in ch 19). So this chapter looks like it does both flashback and flashforward.
15 Prelude to the bowl judgments.
16 The bowl judgments.
17-18 Babylon the great destroyed.
19 Armageddon.
20 Millennial Kingdom.
21-22 Eternal State.
R E V E L A T I O N 1 1 : 1 5
The way I would understand modular narrative to work in that passage, Revelation 11:15, (I am not sure if you know what I am about to sayâeven if you disagree, you will see my consistency in it) works like this: This is at the point of the 7th Trumpet (which is also the same as the 7 vials). It is in that stream of judgement conquer as the 7th Trumpet begins that AT THE END OF THE VIALS this will be the final rule of Christ. Modular narrative has a poetic style to it in that I donât see this as flash forward, but rather a certaintyâhaving already accomplished 2 other judgement sets, and realizing a final phase to destroy this kingdom of antichrist for goodâin anticipationâŚhaving already the glory so farâŚthis is the attitude and confirmation of the 7 vials). It is kind of a poetic deviceâŚbut seemingly more so a device of emotional certainty and praise. God knows He will win. They are in the final stretch nowâŚkind of thing.
T H E 6 T H S E A L
The 6th Seal â It does not say Jesus appears in the clouds. You are borrowing this from Matt 24:29 and superimposing it onto the 6th seal. We can disagree about it. We can have difference on whatâŚ
6:16They called to the mountains and the rocks, âFall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?â
âŚmeans. But Rev 6 does not say anything about Jesus being in the clouds. What it does say about the sky is that the sun is dark, the moon is blood, and stars fall to the earth, and the skies rollup. But no clouds.
In Revelation 14, the imagery there may likely be the sign of The Son of Man. But as you notice, I place chapter 14 as flash forward to Armageddon. The reason being is that chapter 14 is the intro to 15 and 16 and 19 (all about the grand finale, which has its grand finale as Armegeddon). Not to mentionâ14:18:
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Remember the language from Joel chapter 3? Sounds very similar does it not? This is the blood bath of Armageddon. Please see 19:15. âHe treads the [f]wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.â
Remember this parable: Matthew 13:24-29. He gathers the tares first, then the wheat. When you look at Rev 14, you see two reapings. The second one is obviously not good. So what is the first? Is it the rapture? The wheat? But they are not first. To me, this appears to be those who end up before him in the separation of the sheep and goat, Matt 25. Whatever they are, they are not likely wheat, at least according to Matt 13. The wheat, I would understand are: Matt 24:31. These, to me, are the Jews gathered from around the world, those who ran from antichrist. They are not resurrected. They go directly into the millennial kingdom. The four winds language is common in scripture and refers to âon earth.â Please see: 10 Bible verses about Four Winds
R E V E L A T I O N 1 2
As I look over your post, I may not be answering all specifics, but in my outline and other answers, I do address them. The one thing I could mention here is Rev 12. Ok, so let me ask, what is the sign for? The sign is something we see in the future. And it points to something in the future even to the sign. A sign is not for something in the past. I believe this is from the beginning of tribulation (or the 70th week) because the story of woman and child i see as the sign for âseals.â The woman is Israel, and the child is both Christ and His body (Rev 2:27 being the bodyâŚthe rapture). Now, I must admit here, if a rapture is a part of the seal signsâŚit could agree with you or me in the way I am seeing it. It could be pretrib raptureâŚor it could be 6th seal raptureâŚbecause the baby goes up and the woman flees. In that I would say you and i might overlap.
The reason I see that as seal sign is because in Rev 15:1 we see A DEFINATE vial sign in the celestial. Then there are two othersâŚjust like there are two other judgement sets. The red dragon is likely the celestial sign for Trumpets. Notice 1/3 as a signature sign of the red dragon story assigned to the face plate sign. And then see how often 1/3 is mentioned in Trumpet judgements. And notice why the only one time its not. That leaves one last celestial sign (out of the whole book of RevelationâŚimaginative with crazy colorful imageryâŚand yetâŚaside from the sign of the Son of ManâŚthere are only 3 signs in the whole bookâŚinteresting, no? And they are allâŚcelestial).
Blessings dear brother. Hope this makes sense. We are speaking different languages. Same situation with my church. I need to take quite a while, as you see, so that we can start talking about the same thing. In this though, I have done my best to show you my language. You have laid out yours. Now we know the differences. Prayerfully, maybe from hereâŚas the Lord willsâŚperhaps we might further sharpen each others iron. Blessings.
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Well, okay, so, I wasnât trying to say that the trumpets and vials were the same thing. They are different things happening within the wrath of God.
The main thrust is that the tribulations are over before the first trumpet judgement is blown. The saints are gone by that time, theyâve been raptured. Whatâs left is an unrepenting world, plus they have more pressing things than persecuting Christians at that time. Itâs no longer like the days of Noah or Lot for them. Once you have the trumpets start, itâs not the tribulations but the wrath of God. Youâre right that the trumpets precede the vials.
Iâm just saying that the rapture takes place before both of them, but after the tribulations of those days.
I see 2 chronological sets of events, not 1 chronological set of events with a bunch of flash forwards because then you have duplicated events if you see them as happening in order and you also have Jesus delivering the world to Antichrist which is not going to happen. Itâs modular in that the 2 narratives give different details, and all are important⌠but when the details match each other it is also important because it shows events happening in parallel rather than chronologically.
as far as the 6th seal. The people asking for the rocks to hide them are hiding from Him who sits on the throne. How would they know itâs Jesus if they donât see Him?
Also, the seals arenât judgements. Theyâre things that God allows to happen, but itâs all the workings of Satan and his Antichrist. God doesnât pass a judgement on His own people to have them murdered. But God does allow His people to be persecuted, and will avenge them. It might seem like semantics, but itâs important. Weâre promised to be spared the wrath of God. Calling the seals the wrath of God doesnât fit.
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Irregardless of what is happening in this world, let Jesus Christ be our Vision!
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WowâŚAmen!!!
Amen sister Kina! God bless you! Thank you so much for sharing my article!
Amen Laura. Me too. Itâs pretty rough out there in Christian forum land. Sad to say. I noticed that problem in YT videoâs of how Christian leaders disagreed with one another and how sad of an example it often gaveâŚmuch less off the beaten pathâforums that are not so public. This really is a beautiful place. Amen.
I would love to watch that movie if you or your husband might remember. Laura, I saw on the news coming out of Syria a few years back when they were more hot in the news. And a reporter came out sharing that there were several differing waring groups all trying to bring about the end times. It seemed like one of those movies where the police, FBI, and CIA are all involved with similar cases but they are not communicating with each other and keep bumping into each other, arresting each other etc. Only on an apocalyptic scaleâŚlol.
Very very very true what you say. And makes scary real sense. But this does not surprise God. So Heâs working on all of us. I canât tell you how many times I would revisit a passage or look something up in the word under a foreign context to me and walk away goingâŚâWhat? Thatâs in there?â OrâŚâThatâs not in there?â One of the best hermenuetics is the Spirit conditioning our heart to just settle downâŚand believe. Who was it that said, âBelieve that you may understand.â Augustin? Perhaps not the best reference for thatâŚbut how trueâŚhow true. Our beliefs should not drive the narrative that often has absolutely nothing to with them. Amen, precious sister. Blessings.
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