Great content tonight JD and team , thank you for all your work. The comparisons with Joseph as a type of Christ was wonderful and I’m still going through them.
Bless you all and praying specifically for the antennas.
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Hi Jay thanks for the reply. The way I approach the book in general is perhaps different than most.
D E B I A S I N G 
1 0 1
I spent the first very many reads based on an outline I did. The outline did not force anything into a category, but just noted what was in each chapter. As I was then reading it over and over again (with notice as to how something in one chapter might reflect another, it started to make sense how the book itself maps things out.
Honestly, the way you are describing things sounds a bit like you are tending to fix problems…like double this or undouble that. I don’t think it can work like that. We bring too much to the table trying to look at the whole by fixing little things…rather than letting those little things suggest themselves where and how they belong.
In addition, it is also like you see certain things in Matt and other books where you might tend to look out how those concepts you have formed makes sense in Revelation. But I did not do that. For example, you see Matt 24:29 in the sixth seal. Granted, it is understandable why. But think about it for a moment. If the lamb is on the throne, how is it that he is in the clouds to meet us there? I realize you would see a throne in the clouds. But Christ’s own words were: John 14:3 “When everything is ready, I will come and get you, so that you will always be with me where I am.” It did not say, “You will be with me where I am.” It said that +, “I will COME and GET YOU.” Which at least in a real way implies that he COMES to meet us…without having His throne necessarily affixed to Him.
I would see though that in Matt 24:31 it says He will send His angels. So I understand how you are looking at this (and in part because also I would ask like you to look at it how I am seeing it…without your filter…you don’t have to agree with it…but it helps to see it). Some problems here:
S E A L 6 M A T C H E S ?
There is no mention in the 6th seal of:
- Angles
- Trumpet
- Mourning (although they are fearful)
- No mention of Christ being revealed (although people do seem to know something)
- No sky split apart
- Earthquake (yes in 6th seal–but not mentioned in Matt 24:29)
- No clouds
- No darkened moon
- No darkened stars (although I admit rolled up like a scroll may be very similar).
10, No stars falling to the earth (not mentioned in Matt 24:29)
These are some of the differences. Now I will share where there is something huge I can point out in your favor: “Who is able to stand,” is mentioned in the 6th seal. This is very similar language to Luke 21:36, “…and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.” Why this is good for your side is, many pretribbers see this a rapture quote.
However, another dis-similarity is that in Luke 21:36 it is “Son of Man.” In Matt 24:29 it is “Son of Man.” Yet, in the 6th seal it is “the Lamb.” So in this breakdown, I would ask that you see that I let myself be challenged without bringing unnecessary presuppositions to keep myself from perhaps noticing differences. What is good about that is being open to that might help crack a code somewhere else totally unrelated. It is a good practice to give alternative views a place for their own argument before crowding too many other things into the evaluation of it. In addition, though, alternatively, if the 6th seal was the Sign of the Son of Man, why is “Son of Man” not there where it certainly had room to…and even used a different term, “Lamb” instead.
AFTER THOUGHT
I was not looking for pretrib rapture. I kept open. I actually thought I saw prewrath 6th seal. I honestly let myself go there. But what I thought was evidence turned out to be rather vague. Letting the text stand on its own…well…that is why it stood out to me like Modular Narrative. I was not looking for it to be that genre. Try telling a seminary student that Revelation is written in 21st century screenplay…and lets use that as a hermeneutic. I came from a very strict hermeneutic driven approach. But when I just allowed my own presuppositions take a back seat…the book has a way of dimensionalizing and becomes like a popup story book in that way.
W R A T H & T I M I N G
Wrath Timing: I get your point. Seal 6 speaks of Wrath now coming or then coming. But we can notice wrath without it having to separate seals from the rest unnecessarily. In other words, whatever seal 6 is, it is also considered the wrath. And i believe you might say, “But we get raptured from it.” I am not trying to put the rapture anywhere. I am just noticing what is going on with the text. Before solving a jigsaw puzzle, it is not good to presume where pieces go first. We first must have all the pieces and the right pieces. And the best way to recognize what a piece is, is by letting it be the piece that it is…not the piece we think it should be.
These seem like 2 separate thoughts combined as one. Ok so, seeing chronological events with flashforward and flashback does not duplicate the event. It explains why an event is shown in its non-chronological order. Maybe you can be more specific on that point?
As for Jesus delivering the world to Antichrist, I am not even sure really, honestly, what that means. Please provide some tangible examples and context.
In a similar way, can you give an example of what you mean by this? Like give an example of parallels only in the book of Revelation please. Then we can look at the specifics on that, so we both see best where the other is coming from. And also, how do you know that matching details absolutely means “parallel” vs chronological?
For example in contrast, I believe chapter 14 pictures the upcoming great tribulation because it is right before 15 and 16 in which we see these things occur…and 14 appears to introduce. In my view, Satan only has the 6th Trumpet happen since He took official supernatural office (in my view). That means that it would appear that those judgements from the middle of the tribulation onward would be: Trumpet 5 & 6 and 7 (which is the vials). So, chapter 14 is prelude-ish (or interlude-ish…as 15 shows the unveiling process of vial and 16 the execution of them) to the vials and displaying flashback when referring to the mark of the beast…since the kingdom of supernatural satan on earth is Trumpet 6 + in my timeline, it would make sense that chapter 14 (a chapter escorting us into the period of the vial judgements…mark of the beast period…reaper/winepress judgement period) would reference the mark also (as flashback) because the reason for the vials is because Satan is supernaturally ruling on God’s created earth. The season of judgement corresponds to the level of blasphemy on earth…and the devil calling himself God would be the max point forward. I am just laying out how I would provide a context for why flashback works. I am providing evidence. It may not be seen by you as such. But I do not do this to try and correct anything to dismiss or rule out another thing…nor am I trying to adjust the timing of something else because I have a presupposition. I merely see 14’s utility use literarily affirming how it makes sense as its use of flashback and why it is placed in Rev 14.
R E V 1 4 R E V 1 5 R E V 1 6
Revelation 14
1-5
This is Israel reinstituted as a nation to evangelize the world during the vials (having been sealed and protected during the Trumpets…and would likely take over after the 2 witnesses rapture, between the 6th and 7th Trumpet…the 7th Trumpet being the transitional timeframe for the 144K activation).
6-9
Babylon the great is an entire issue unto itself. But i believe in Modular Narrative style chapter 17 = Babylon during the first half, and 18=Babylon during the second half. It would appear that Babylon falls very near the end of the great tribulation (which its import for the story lands its reference in those latter chapters)…but the announcement is in 14 because it is a part of the new Israeli era for them to witness to the world…and therefor given here (in chapter 14). One way to look at 14 is like a table of contents of sorts for the vials period. Thus the other 2 angel warnings. And the first one, why is that angel there? To me, it would indicate that it is the kingdom of God once again proud of Israel, and proud to fulfill the promises to her. So an angel announces the eternal gospel in celebration of Gods promise fulfilled in Israel. Its rather so beautiful, no?
v6 “to those who [b]live on the earth, and to every nation, tribe, language, and people”
Compare to 7:9
“from every nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb”
Compare to 10:11
“You must prophesy again concerning many peoples, nations, languages, and kings.”
I believe when we let the word of God speak back to us…we can hear some pretty amazing things.
13
Those we saw in 7:9-17. A marker statement about the attitude of God toward those who repent during the coming Great Tribulation.
14-20
I believe this is the Sign of the Son of Man. Although not sure. But the reapers are flash-forward to the winepress of wrath, Armageddon. The language = the winepress wrath Armageddon language (also found in Joel where the moon and sun darken and the stars fall from the sky…Joel affirms it is the battle of the valley of Jehoshaphat…i.e…Armageddon). See Rev 19:15 “wine,” and Joel 3:14-15
Let the nations be awakened
And come up to the Valley of [g]Jehoshaphat,
For there I will sit to judge
All the surrounding nations.
13 Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe.
Come, tread the grapes, for the wine press is full
. . . . .
CHAPTER 15
This is all about the firing up of the vial engines
. . . . . .
CHAPTER 16
Literally vials 1-7
. . . . . .
This is why I say Modular Narrative. We see three chapters grouped together: 14 table of context, 15 the house warming party, 16 the execution of the vials. Maybe this is what you mean by Parallel? But they are not exactly parallel. 14 is introductory overview (it is as much sketches of coming events as it is an inauguration ceremony leading into it…it is both actually). 15 is not the same as 16 in execution. 15 goes chronologically prior to 16.
F L A S H - F O R W A R D & F L A S H B A C K
The way I would answer, "How do I know that parallels = flash-forward or flashback is that Rev 14 is about the vials period (coming after 13–the judgements associated with or because of what we see in 13). The 3rd woe. And the timing of the 5th Trumpet being identified as that point where the beast comes out of the abyss and supernaturally empowers the man of lawlessness only leaves 1 Trumpet left due unto an antichrist with power reign. Therefore, it makes sense that the angel warning of the mark of the beast flashes back to when that occured…as the judgements for that offense to be accomplished on earth before a holy God = vials. You may not agree. But it is consistent in theme.
6 T H S E A L
This is a strong point. And I would hope you might point out my strong points as well. If you had a trumpet, clouds, a sign, or something specifically linguistically supporting that notion, I would be much more in your corner. But being terrorized of the Son of Man is not exactly “mourning” over Him. Now if mourning were reflected here, I would be closer to being in your corner. But there is enough to suggest that mourning is very different that being in absolute terror. Those are very different.
I’ll have you know that I came across a commentary with this: "The wrath of God began earlier, when the Lamb arose from His seat to open the first seal. Now it is recognized for what it is. “It should be noted that the passage does not say that the wrath of God begins only with the sixth seal, but that only with the sixth seal do unbelievers recognize that it is the wrath of God.”
Now, when i look up chapters 5 and 6, there is no mention of the lamb getting up from the throne. But if so, please let me know. This plays greatly to your favor. Because, had this been true, sinners in the 6th seal were not referencing something they saw, but something that had been and will be true but was currently of a different action (namely, that Christ would have been standing–but I never see that in scripture). So He would be on the throne. And that is what they understood about Him with the 6th seal. But also, the rest of that quote kind of makes sense, no? Like, how would we know for sure the 4th horseman is not the wrath of God?
In any case the answer to this does not sway how i am looking at rapture timing. If the seals are birth pangs or something other than wrath, and the trumpets and bowls are wraith, I am fine with that. I don’t say that because God may rapture us pretrib, at the 1st seal or at the 6th seal. But at least during or before the seals. But whether it is the 1st seal or the sixth seal, to me in a way – that is secondary and not presumed.
Here is something you might find a bit interesting. On this forum, one of the better arguments (against even my own leanings) that the rapture is pretrib is chapter four where John is called up by a trumpet sound and that is God, though, correct? So if that is a picture or a type of rapture referent, than it happens before even the 1st seal is released (I actually favor rapture post first seal pre second seal…which you probably never heard before…lol) . So the way I see it is that the woman and child are the sign for seals. Like I said that child could go up anytime during seals. But since I see it as a sign for seals, it might imply “not a pretrib rapture” but a during the seals rapture. Which comports to both of our views (yours and mine). However, something that just came to me as I was writing this portion to you–perhaps Rev 4 rapture picture (if true) is a soft picture (not hard etched in stone picture). The reason that would mean anything to me is that I thought we might be going up during or just after the first seal is released. If Rev 4 was a hard picture and not soft, my 1st seal rapture view would suck…lol. But now, perhaps the seal sign has a tension a bit stronger (as a rubric over seals) that may overarch Rev 4 “hard” picture of rapture “a type.” Which would mean that in my view it would make sense to consider a 1st seal rapture (or of course 6th for that matter). Just giving you a window into how I might be tracking.
S E M A N T I C S O F W R A T H
In my view, this is semantics. I realize not to you. But to me, yes. For example, would you say that the persecution the saints and the apostles received was God’s wrath? No, you would say the 5th seal would just be like the 1st century but bigger. Men’s evil God permits. But the influence of 5th seal is not just an evolving of men’s hearts. It is persecution authorized by the release of a seal Christ Himself releases. How can it not be? Those are His seals. And He is the only one worthy to release them. So how I would see that is its just like the 1st century, but in a more fully authorized sense.
Ok so look at it another way. In Rev 20:4 we have those saints that were exposed to the Great Tribulation. They became believers. You may see these differently, but I see 6:9-11 as saints yes from seal 5, but also those killed in tribulation before the 144k. And I see 7:9-16 as those killed after the the inauguration of the 144k…or the trophies of those won by the Jewish Nation of the 144k. By the way, there is an interesting statement in Rev 6:11 “…rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers and sisters who were to be killed even as they had been, was completed also…” Please consider this. If the 6th seal is the rapture (right after the 5th), why would they be told this, if the 6th seal was going to “not kill them?” It could happen, meaning those much later. But it’s an odd place to put that statement, no? Especially if its on the heels of the rapture. In addition, if you sense the 6th seal as some finale point, why are the 5th seal saints told:
“until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers and sisters who were to be killed even as they had been, was completed also”
RELATING TO IF THE 6TH SEAL IS A RAPTURE
With the 6th seal right next door…why would a statement like that be said if the 6th seal was some finale changing point? Did it mean they would rest until the saints were killed after the 6th seal rapture? It kind of loses context there, as far as I can see.
RELATED TO “WRATH” NOT BEING INFLICTED UPON SAINTS OR GOD’S PEOPLE
Furthermore, we see Rev 7:16 saying “…sun [c]beat down on them, nor any scorching heat…” this is language of the 4th vial. So if those are saved saints who were beheaded in Rev 20:4 (or even not beheaded by suffered as believers during the great tribulation) why would God permit them to be exposed to His wrath?
And that concludes today’s session. God bless.
okay… a lot to unpack but I want to keep it fairly brief.
The key thing about the rapture passage in 1 Thessalonians 4 that many people seem to forget, is that Paul said that the Lord will descend from heaven, but that we will meet Him in the air. Connecting this with Matthew 24… The Lord is in the clouds, and He sends His angels to gather us. Considering they pulled Lot away from Sodom by the arm, I think they’re quite capable of “rapturing” us in the ‘caught up’ sense. Our God does things in progressive revelation so I believe it is vital to compare similar events, noting things that are the same across the events and joining them together for a complete revelation, rather than seeing things as separate events with very similar components.
Otherwise you have a rapture then what is this gathering thing Jesus is talking about if it’s not the rapture? The only reason to not believe that it is the rapture, is because you have decided ahead of time that the rapture is pretribulational and this gathering takes place after the tribulations.
Otherwise, with no bias towards one position or another, you’d see 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Matthew 24:29-31, and Revelation 6:12-13 and it just clicks.
But if you go into that scripture having been told that the rapture takes place before the tribulations… you’re going to interpret that other scripture differently and unrelated.
Basically I see Jesus sitting on the throne, in the clouds, it’s the revelation of Jesus is the King… so it’s important that He is on the throne.
For the differences… I see the “rolled up like a scroll” to be a way of describing the sky being split apart. The stars falling to earth happen in the trumpets. I think that there will be an impact event or multiple impact events that are how the trumpets manifest. Apophis is on a near collision trajectory in 2029 with a chance that it goes through a 1km wide gravitational keyhole that will put it on collision course 7 years later. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. That’d be a major catastrophic event happening in 2036.
As for Jesus delivering the world to the Antichrist… if you read Revelation as being in chronological order, that is you read the mark of the beast happening AFTER the 7th trumpet, what you are basically saying is that the “kingdoms of the world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.” then… suddenly the antichrist has rule of the earth for 42 months, and was given his power, seat, and great authority by the dragon (satan) in Revelation 13:2? When did Satan get granted authority over this world after Jesus claimed it after the 7th trumpet?
Only explanation is… Satan didn’t. Revelation 13:2 happens years before Revelation 11:15, 42 months before to be precise.
Both you and I will probably agree that while we don’t know the day and hour of the rapture, we will know the day that Armageddon takes place as being 1290 days after the Abomination of Desolation. Because that time period is given over and over in multiple ways.
as for the example of Parallels…
Revelation 7:9-17 Saints in Heaven after having overcome the Great Tribulations, meaning that the Great Tribulations happened before that. Revelation 15:2… same thing, saints in heaven having overcome the mark of the beast (associated with the great tribulations).
Revelation 7:1-8 144,000, Revelation 14:1-5, 144,000, same group, right?
Revelation 11:13 great earthquake Revelation 16:18-19 great earthquake, I think they’re the same one.
as far as the mourning? I think the distress they feel is mourning and if they recognize that this is the second coming of Jesus they’d be afraid and mourn that they missed their chance.
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Successful and prosperous governments all have one thing in common - Enshrinement of private property rights in their constitution. Pastor JD’s reference to Gen 47:20
Gen 47:20 And Joseph bought all the land of Egypt for Pharaoh; for the Egyptians sold every man his field, because the famine prevailed over them: so the land became Pharaoh’s.
This is a clear indication that ancient Egypt had Private Property Rights enshrined. Pharaoh of the time was indeed an enlightened monarch.
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First of all, thanks for hanging in there and reading all of that.
Thanks for the reference about he will descend from heaven. That might mean He steps up from His throne. Well, what I was saying earlier. This language assists that. But even though the sky is mentioned, there is no mention of clouds. That could be semantics. I know, it could be. Its just that the Lord often uses connector like language. You mention clouds as if it is mentioned in Matt 24. But it’s not…just saying.
I agree with this two. You don’t like my similars…lol. We go about it differently. I look to see if passages mean something else possibly. I do that for pretrib, midtrib, and prewrath, as well as posttrib. I admit, the pretribbers tend to pull certain church father’s statements for example into their context. I don’t do that. The church fathers can aid you or me. So I don’t like it when pretribbers do that. It does cause doubt in that when when they do. But my understanding of the rapture is not based on the church fathers. Just letting you know, I work hard at not surrendering any idea (even if it disagrees with my position), but after doing that for several years, I have not heard in 12+ hours of solid debate anything that is stronger than pretrib. Honestly.
Not true. I told you why. Did you look at that link I sent you before? 10 Bible verses about Four Winds If you look at those verses, you will see the use of “the four winds” indicating by land not by air. Its an expression. You may not agree with my take, but you are asking something I already explained to you. When I see those four winds passages…it shows me there are other ways to look at it FROM SCRIPTURE ITSELF.
What I think it is, please remember this, I told you this before: I see that as Israel being gathered from all over the earth after running from antichrist. I also let you know about Matt 13:24-30. So, how can the reapers in chapter 14 be the rapture? The wheat does not come first. But the tares. You have not explained that. I see the reapers as 2 different people reaped. The first are taken Matt 24:40. Look where they go Luke 17:37. I hope you are looking at these. A good dialogue about this is building on what we understand about the other. Not going back and forth about the same point, respectfully.
In the event it might seem that I would have the same theological problem with a pretrib rapture, I can explain. You might think, "If you have a pretrib rapture then that also is the wheat going up before the tares. But I don’t see it like that. The parable of the wheat and tares belongs to Israel. The rapture of the church is not included in that parable. That is God fulfilling His promise to Israel. But if you have the rapture as the reapers in 14, then who is left? Only the tares, right? I believe my position removes itself from the Matt 13:24-32 problem, because the church is not in that. And I believe that rightly divides the word concerning the church and Israel. Your view, does not allow for that distinction. Or else, after your rapture, where is the wheat then second like in Matt 13? You only have tares left.
Thank you for explaining this. I understand how you are seeing this now, it is helpful. Where we differ is that you understand Rev 11:15-19 to be a point at which Christ rules. I don’t. Well not like you do. I see this as a statement affirming the last mile, the last act. And in this act, 6:10-11 (the 5th vial) destroys the kingdom of the enemy. I find it ironic that it is parallel with the 5th Trumpet, where in that it is an allusion (not occurring at the same time) to where all the supernatural authority came from to rule to begin with. Yeah, we are going to see this different. I understand how you are seeing it. I am not sure you are understanding though how I am. According to chapter 11, the 3rd woe was coming still…and to me…is the vials. Would Christ pour out wrath on a Kingdom He was ruling?
This is good and is a strong point. Thank you for clarifying. I would understand that the number of the beast would likely then be distributed during the 5th and 6th Trumpets. It would allow for that, no? It doesn’t say in 15 that they are the only ones in the great tribulation. Would it not be ironic? I mean the angels are about to pour out the vails. So do you see the vails already poured out before their sign in 15:1?
Yes, we agree here. It is the same group. But by paralleled you mean the same time? What I see is that there is a warning in 7 so that those 144k can be sealed. By the 5th Trumpet there are sealed (Rev 9:4). And by 14 they are inaugurated. It could not all be parallel lest you have them sealed in 7? To me it is just easily showing the path of these 144K through the judgement cycles.
So do you see the 6th seal there too? And at which point do you put the Ezekiel 38 earthquake? If we see earthquake, it does not automatically mean we have to group them. If we go fully with that approach, then there is a view that the seals, trumpets, and vials are all going off simultaneously. Seal one, Trumpet one, and vial one. It does not seem you hold to this view, but that is where many end up bringing too many similarities together. It sounds like you don’t, but I could be wrong.
I think the forum has been very gracious to let us run amuck in this topic. I think it very helpful in one way because most people I know don’t have the same passion for the details. And this might help some to process differences. But I noticed you have posted 2 topics already. Would you mind starting one for this if you would like to continue it there? I think we have laid out our positions better. There are always more points. I am fine if you might like to just have a last word and move on. I think this will be helpful for some to reflect upon. I don’t mind letting you have the last word if you’d like to close this part of this thread. Or I am fine with continuing if you would like to open a new thread. And thanks again for hanging in there as much, Jay. Hopefully this has been a sharpening of our hearts and expressions of His majesty. It has been for me, and I thank you for it. God bless.
Yes, i would like to have a copy of those as well! So looking forward to meeting our Lord!
I have been wondering recently if the rebellion in Thessalonians (Pastor Farag made a great case for this being the departure as well) could be the rebellion of the world against globalism. If Christians could be deceived potentially then I don’t see globalism being “The Deception” but maybe a rescue from it? Peace and Security?
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Hi Destingirl, and welcome. Your thoughts are very appreciated. And I look forward to your unique presence here with us in this awesome forum…quite a place of beauty. I would like to weigh in on some thoughts you share. But before I do, I would just like to say that there are a wide range of opinions here, and every post here, that I have seen, adds toward the crafting of what our eternity with Him may be fashioned into. With each wonderful and uniquely hearted saint in our forum, how amazing and beautiful a thing it is to share in each others lives, and benefit from each perspective and cherished heart of our kindred saints. That we each, as members of His body, are here reminded the blessing of each and every one…a tapestry of His kind intentions towards us. Thank you for the opportunity to share this forum with you today. Blessings.
MERELY A PIECE OF PEACE
I believe the departure could serve as both rapture & falling away (simultaneously) also being of temporal context occurring, as well as a supernatural rapture. The drive toward the object of that 2 Thes 2 area in scripture, to me, is “things in proximity to antichrist mid tribulation rule,” though. If we look at Seal judgement 5, at that time, it looks like there is certainly a falling away from Christian orthodoxy in a major way. Some solid theologians see the falling away (in the apostacy sense) in near mid trib terms. I hear a lot about our day of deception. It makes sense that Matt 24:5 is understood to classify tribulation beginnings as “deception.” And certainly “peace, peace” won’t be (according to that period being spoke about) true peace. Putting Matt 24:5 and “Peace and Security” together makes sense. Amen.
THE POSSIBLE THEME IN MATTHEW 24
As far as Christians (or the elect) being deceived, a Laodicean church would of course be prime for that (being lukewarm). As I look over Matt 24 though, we see this deception mentioned a few times: Matt 24:5, 24:11, and 24:24. The way I would look at that somewhat is like seeing a Christ projected theme that climaxes at 24:24 “False Christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.” This latter use in Matt 24:24 seems to possibly be the impetus for earlier mention. As Israel had missed their messiah the first time, during the tribulation, there would be no return from missing Him again. That seems to be the possible import in Matt 24. When we see all this craziness going on, all the deceptive media and ugly attitudes all around us, we have not seen the age of grace like this before. I think the upside in that though is that it is still the age of grace. To us, yes, it has not been like this before. But as we look at Matt 24:24 and compare it with COVID deception, we see quite a stark difference.
DAMAGE CONTROL IN THE AGE OF GRACE
I believe the supernatural age of the tribulation will be a bit more epic that how we might conceive “epic” in the age of grace. Something like how we might compare the strange politics and socioeconomics of COVID to false Christs doing miracles. These are on entirely different scales. Sure, believers can be deceived by government propaganda. Some of it may be spiritually damaging and some of it may just be dumbing things down for them. But in the age to come, it won’t be “dumbing” but “damning.” Sure some could fall into great apostacy today. But the warning, as far as I understand, about a great deception is not relative to the age…but specific to one, the tribulation midpoint.
CHAINSAW vs CLIPPERS
I’m not saying that the people won’t be greatly deceived today. The church is in huge apostacy. The impacts the Social Justice movement has had in its infiltrating the church is as sad as it is bizarre today. We see it. We see a rise also in patriotism as the new age of enlightenment against the backdrop of globalist agendas. But even Social Justice and runaway patriotism pales in comparison to the showing of great signs and wonders. These are apples and oranges, as far as I can tell. As sophisticated an operation as is the UN global initiatives may be, they hold no candle to false signs and wonders. We have no reference for that today. We cannot, but for Hollywood, even conceive that. And in that sense, there may and could be a danger in assigning this insight of “do not be deceived” too early on. If “do not be deceived” came in magnitudes, what might the differences of magnitude look like when comparing/contrasting today vs. the apolalypse version of “do not be deceived?” If we use the “same” magnitude for both (yet the stronger magnitude only really apply to one…the tribulation timeframe), then the concern might be that we are armed for bear while hunting a mouse. And perhaps using a rifle that powerful, we inadvertently blow a hole in the floor board, wall, or barndoor. As wisdom seeks to proportionize to meet the sawing of a great redwood tree with a powerful chainsaw and the removal of a rose with clippers and not the other way around, so to might the application of and balance of “deception” and “reveal” be for us in our age.
THE THEME OF "REVEALING vs "DECEPTION
Looking more squarely at our age of grace, I am reminded of Pastor JD’s previous definition given us of “apocalypse.” It was a while back. He echoed something I was kinda thinking as well. The apocalypse means “revealing.” So in a sense it would be equally good to ask ourselves today (not just about deception…but revealing), “In what we see happening, is there a sense of things being revealed?” And I believe there is. We see the intensions of politicians, judges, UN strategies, etc. And with COVID alone, boy has that been a super huge reveal mode. So, it would look like what might be in competition today is “reveal” vs “deception.”
I believe that because we do see deception being revealed, if I had to lean toward one side of the pendulum or the other (asking what is more important: that there is a revealing or what we see revealed as deception?), it would be the “revealing” side of the pendulum. I believe that, in also honoring your concern in regards to deception, the take away as we approach the tribulation is “reveal” for revelation…as in “book of.” I believe the tendency toward what “deception” looks like today is also akin to the zeitgeist (to borrow a very inappropriate term) and mood of our times. That zeitgeist might be parallel or adjacent to (but not the “same as”), the “revealing” qualities of our time. We certainly have a lot of deception going on, for sure. But it would appear, in all of that, the more profound take away might be the recognizing of “the reveal theme” above the discovering of the deception. This approach, as far as I am seeing, asks what by the “reveal theme” itself says and means. Not what the deception means, but what having a “reveal theme” means, or may mean. This approach may tend to yield discernment equal to or greater than deciphering implications of what deception might mean for us.
This could seem to sound like dumbing something down. But I am not intending that at all. Rather, I’m just suggesting that the theme of “revealing” itself does possibly tend to indicate that the “revealing” theme may be as much a path to discernment today (and perhaps more of a path) than what deception as revealed could–for the simple reason that there could be a plethora of outcome and theories to what “deception” implies…at least, today.
BAKING THE DISCERNMENT CAKE–A KEY INGREDIENT
For example, with COVID vaccination, we know things in it are not healthy. We know it is new science proto-tested. We know there are risks with that. We know the media has hyped COVID to a great extent. 1) The deception = COVID is at least somewhat greatly hyped & and vaccines may be a preventative cure but dangerous. We see this in understanding deception. But looking at this same thing through the “reveal theme” lens looks more like this: 2) The tendency of our age is to scare and offer less than helpful solutions. If we go with option 1, we know about COVID and vax. If we go with option 2, we have a symptom filter we can apply to any number of scenarios. But even more, we have a wider field of vision by which to test theories, and still even more; we have an understanding that God is more interested in revealing things to us than deception can pigeon hole our focus via distraction from the fact that God, simply is, revealing. Could it be that the deception, or a deception, of our age may tend to be a “hyperizing” of deception itself (chainsaw vs. clippers)? We are in an age of deception, yes. But are we in the age of “thematic revealing” more? The answer to that will groove our focuses accordingly. If the chainsaw is for tomorrow and the clippers are for today, then maybe: a chainsaw to a great redwood is for deception, as a clipper to rose bush is for smelling the spiritual flower of “revealing.” Missing “the revealing” for “the deception” would likely not be fatal (as would it’s opposite), but it still might cost something. And realizing that “something” could be the key, or a key, to discerning discernment.
REVELATION’S RAZOR
Discerning deception can be too up close and personal, at times, to the thing being discerned; deceptive things/plans which may never get legs and prevail. Whereas, if we take all above mentioned things into consideration, Occam’s Razaor, in that context, could look like: the simplest option is usually the most true = “the revealing,”…if understood to be applied to “today.” And the simplest option, with so much deception going on around us, might be that “revealing” as a theme is the consistent witness here, itself being the basic theme and actual basis by which all far more complex theories would or could come/stem from. If “revealing” is the common denominator indicating the very theme concept of a book it implies (Revelation), that would be Occam’s Razor when too many more complex theories jockey for attention and acceptance. “Do not be deceived” could be as straightforward as Christ revealing just that. That by nature of mass deception, those with spiritually mature eyes would know it to be a time also of “mass revelation.” And in that, if true for the tribulation midpoint, how much more true for the ending point of the age of grace where the greater deception does not appear to apply? The one deceived during the tribulation will fall for false Christs. But that same situation looked at by a believer at that time would see, “Oh, its that time prophesied.” Having less focus on “Yikes, a false Christ…what do I do?” And more a focus on: “What possible stage of end time are we?” And, “Yeah, Christ warned us about this.”
ALL THE KINGS HORSES AND ALL THE KINGS MEN…
Looking back now at today, if in the age to come during the tribulation discernment will flourish for the elect, how much more might discernment permissibly ruminate best by the hand of God in our age of “revelation?” Perhaps it is enough in realizing that that is the age we just might be in–for that too seems to be a bit of a challenge, does it not? One could say, perhaps there is a spiritual battle in being able to simply recognize a difference between an age of “revealing” and an age of “deception?” If in the timeline story of humanity that confusion might exist somewhere along it, we are at least an excellent candidate then for it. And maybe even as difficult as it might be for the unsaved to fathom the simplicity of “BELIEVE” as realistically enough for salvation, it might indeed be close to this difficulty for us to perhaps best divide an age of revelation vs. the one coming of deception. But if the age of deception is not beyond the saints to discern, then our age of revealing may not nearly be all that farfetched a one for us to proportionately discern. Beyond that, the plans of man and strategies of the evil one (in our age of grace) are still subject to the age of grace ground rules. Deciding how much that self evident truth applies today, and in what manner, may be the panoramic vantage point of view that could possibly notice what neck of the spiritual woods we may actively be in. One possibly transcending just how and what merely earthly kings decide it, or think it, to be. Just a thought. Blessings.
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So I’m wondering, my family isn’t in to much Bible Prophecy. I’m worried about them because of the Mark. Will we be gone because you said that the Rapture will happen first. I’m afraid they’ll take the vaccine, I’m just confused because is it the Mark?
Welcome Erin. There are varying opinions on the rapture in this forum. But for the most part, we believe in a pre tribulation rapture. The typical understanding today is that the tribulation lasts 7 years. I think the most important question for your family is, do they know the Lord? Are they saved?
As for the vaccine, some people believe it is the mark (or a warm up to the mark). From what I know of the vaccine has some nasty things in it. Plus it is too new of a technology to fast track. I would not take it or advise anyone to take it. I don’t believe it is the mark. In Revelation 13, (which covers the timeframe of 3.5 years into the tribulation) is where the number of the beast comes from. For that to happen, there has to be a false prophet, the antichrist, and the image of the beast in the holy temple. And all three of these will have obvious (not mysterious) supernatural powers and they will use them and they will be on display for all. If we do not have that, we do not have a beast. If we do not have “a beast,” we do not have the mark of the beast.
I hope this finds you encouraged. God bless
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Does anyone in here remember a PDF that Pastor JD released way back in IDK? August? July? Golly, I’m just not at all sure anymore. It was a wonderful sheet detailing prophecies already fulfilled and many yet to be but so close. I think that’s what it was. I wanted to review it, thought I had it in a DL folder, and cannot find it anywhere. Does anyone remember anything like that? Am I living in my own brain fog? I don’t have any idea how to even find it now that this is a different website. Anyone? Help? Thanks!
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Leslie, I don’t know if this is the same one. But I ran across it today from our forum:
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Shalom Sister,
This PDF is from Bible Prophecy Update – October 25th, 2020
Maranatha
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I need to be prayed for.
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That teaching, that the gospels are only for and about the Jews, is known as Mid-Acts Dispensationalism and it’s unbiblical. Andy Woods embraces this view, as well as Thomas Ice. Most Christians depend on their teachings for eschatological information, however, be careful with this particular teaching. It bleeds into eschatology and leaves confusion like the partial rapture theory.
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Hi DB, are you pretrib rapture?
Hi @dbperry - just wanted to offer a clarification: Andy Woods does not embrace any such notion that the Gospels are exclusive to the Jews.
What he does teach is that where and when the context, lexicon and audience dictates, Christ can be found addressing the nation of Israel directly.
Please be careful with broad brush strokes.
Yours In Christ
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Hi @dbperry - not necessarily, beyond the argument that mid-acts purports to dissect the Gospel between Jews and Gentiles. I considered Paul to have addressed this issue in his confrontation with Peter as per Galatians 2:11-13.
Would welcome your perspective.
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Wanted to save the 12 points on my notes, so I grabbed these from YouTube transcription, added punctuations and formatted it (ie. there could be typos, grammar errors, etc):
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Create a debt bubble through an expansion of the monetary base. The classic definition of inflation this has been occurring since 1971 when the US closed the gold window.
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In order to keep a system like this from collapsing the monetary base must increase exponentially in an exponentially increasing system. The money creation graph goes vertical at the end. Here’s a quick analogy I really appreciated this analogy if you put a drop of water on the pitcher’s mound of Yankee Stadium and double it every minute then the stadium would be about 5 feet deep in 44 minutes and full in 49 minutes with exponential expansion the increases in money supply get insane just before the system fails. That’s where we’re at now.
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The consequence of an increasing monetary base is rising prices so governments will have to mask the rising prices by manipulating the consumer price index CPI data.
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This manipulation works until the monetary creation goes vertical due to the exponential expansion requirement. I believe this vertical spike began in March of this year.
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When this happens it would typically lead quickly to hyperinflation. The economic formula for price inflation has two variables the: monetary base, and the velocity of money. The velocity of money is the turnover rate of the currency through the economy. If you’re going to rapidly expand the monetary base and don’t want the public to realize that you’re destroying currency then you must slow the velocity of money. I believe this is why we’re locking down for Covid. This cuts economic activity to prevent a price spike that would clue people in that the currencies are being destroyed. This lockdown is critical so that governments can maintain the illusion of a strong currency while they are acquiring the economic means of production.
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Governments start buying corporate debt because bondholders have priority in bankruptcy over equity stock holders. This is a backdoor of sorts to the economic transition and transformation as the government seizes the means of production.
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Legislatures can’t figure out how to support small and midsize businesses thus killing off the competition of the large corporations that are benefiting from government debt purchases. This leaves little option for purchases outside government owned entities. That’s why the restaurants have to shut down that’s why these mom-and-pop stores have to shut down. I’m sorry you’ll forgive me but it is a controlled demolition. It’s very deliberate, it’s very intentional, it’s very planned.
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Governments will be part owner of these private corporations and as a result whisper policy to their management teams, much like the Qantas CEO calling for mandatory vaccines for travel. This will insulate governments from civil liberty issues much like the First Amendment and big tech. Think Revelation 13 – unable to buy and sell. Last week we talked about this we looked at an article out of Israel actually we can’t force you to take the vaccine but here’s what we will do – we’re not going to force you but Amazon will. Airlines will. So you can’t buy sell or trade without the vaccine.
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As most of the economy is gutted people will become desperate and some form of universal basic income (UBI) will be instituted. This will accelerate the velocity of money and accelerate the price rise. In addition we will likely see a banking crisis and vastly more currency creation as central banks attempt to keep the banking system from collapsing. These events will lead to the hyperinflationary collapse of the monetary system according to their plans.
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The monetary collapse may wipe out almost everyone financially and I suspect those insightful enough to position themselves for a hyperinflation will be slapped with some confiscatory taxes because in a tyranny the law is simply the will of the tyrant.
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In a true Hegelian dialectic I suspect that they’ll allow the population to suffer for a time until enough die and become desperate enough to give absolute power to the guy with the solution the antichrist.
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Finally I suspect the solution, you know the Hegelian dialectic is (1) create the crisis, (2) control the reaction and then, (3) offer the solution. I suspect the solution will be essentially controlled digital currency crypto and if you want to buy or sell then you’ll require the fourth Industrial Revolution technology which is what the world economic forum is all about. Will likely include both a digital and genetic modification component potentially through this Covid vaccine or a subsequent one.
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Would that be the same as hyper dispensationalism?