You’ve made some good points. Interesting read.
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Hey there Brother,
Good insight, even if it was not as developed as you would have preferred. Not trying to be argumentative here, I promise. But have you considered:
You seem to be making a case for using ‘more worldy’ methods to entice the Gens Z and Alpha. I’m pretty sure that’s a bad idea.
Question: Can God use any avenue to call people to salvation?
Answer: Why, yes. Yes He can.
Question: Will He? Does He?
Not so sure about that. He did use Balaam’s donkey… But He’s God; He has that prerogative. Question is, do we?
I’m all for getting Jesus to people and people to Jesus. As long as it’s the right Jesus.
I couldn’t put my finger on the problem I had with the campaign, Teren, until I read your post.
Seeker Friendly
Therein lies the problem.
Jesus doesn’t need a PR campaign. People attracted to or believing in a spun-Jesus are being deceived and will not be saved. And the people doing the spinning? The Bible calls them ‘anathema.’
Seeker friendly VS Jesus friendly
We must represent Him honestly and with love, not deception. We are called to plant seeds. What happens when we plant GMO seeds? (work with me here, lol)
Might be how tares came to be in the field….
Shalom,
GR
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I always appreciate your feedback. Even if you argue…I’m good with that dear sister. But I don’t see that you are. His majesty in our differences, amen. But this is a really good topic. So where or where not it strays into a potential or argue-esque matter, what we know it not be, is unreasonable, unhealthy, or divisive (Lord willing)m, amen.
WHAT IS A BELIEVER
Our perspectives will vary here. I think we both share a core sensibility of “sound biblical theology and sound Jesus.” I think where we would differ is not just the hook but perhaps even a full-measure plantation/field/ or arena of difference. The reason why I would think there could be vast expanse in difference is that the real narrow gate is for the church to be about to the mission field. Soft ball seeker friendly movements have been around for quite a while. Is Justin Bieber a believer? Only God knows, but we know that he may not be. Were the Corinthians believers? We know they were…but some seeker friendly versions might pass off far more as what we would presume to be believers. Are Hillsong attendees believers? For the most part, I would say no. But for sure there are some in there hopefully that might wake up amen soon because they do know Him. My point is the world will have its nuanced seeker-friendly vibe. Saddleback was more than seeker friendly…it was ecumenical and focused on self (same as Hillsong).
CONSIDERING OUR CONTEXT
I think it is dutiful for believers to protest these dangerous seeker-friendly movements. I just would see that we (the royal we) tend to put our skin mostly in the game of speaking out. Which is good. I think we well should. But I don’t see a lot of skin in the game of absorption. Here me out for a second por favor. I come from a staunch reformed ultra-conservative church background. It was the godfather against seeker friendli-ism. I am akin to agree with their stance–against seeker friendly. For sure. Where I would differ is conservative potential standoffishness and sometimes brute-like differentiationing (new word). I agree we need to stand boldly for the truth. Amen. This I love (in most ways) with Pastor JD. I was attending an independent baptist church for a few years in which a friend of my friend wanted to be baptized. It all happened pretty quickly. But I found out my friend’s friend thought Jesus was “a way” to God. I did not have the proper time to walk this friend through stuff so I approached the leaders who would baptize. I asked if they baptise people that see Jesus as "a way’ to God. They said no. I asked them to please talk with him before dunking him. They said they would. i later found out they never did talk him. That was not a seeker-friendly church. They teach the bible and rough and temple-independent baptist gospel. Yet…look what time it is. I just share this to let you know you know my heart is not really interested in seeker-friendly anything. So even though we might see differently, I believe Georgia Ruth we agree at the core. I guess I would just put the pressure not on marketing companies but on us. Here’s why…
DORTHY’S DOG GETS RUN OVER BY A FLYING MONKEY
I understand. Would I call He Gets Us evangelism? Not at all. Are those demonstrating Jesus in this way guilty of presenting a wrong Jesus? I’d say no. At least not in its veneer. I’d say where this drops the ball is permitting Catholic and protestant churches that are severely watered down be the absorption of the proselytes. If they directed to only biblical churches I’d think it was smart to get the attention of people. Similar to Luke 16:1-9 (please read this for helpful context). But their network is sinful. The world AND the so-called Christian world is being shaken to its core. We are not in Kansas anymore. And the Christian world around us is Laodicea as far as I would see. I think churches holding to biblical truth are becoming fewer and fewer and even where we are orthodox, I believe (this is just my personal take) we are orthodox in reciprocity to Laodicean grandeur. I don’t mean that to perhaps sound as fatalistic as it might. Just that there is so much wrong, lol, I reckon I am more of the camp of Lord please just pull people out as much as possible before this thing blows.
GOING DOWN IN A BLAZE OF GLORY
In addition, the guy that wrote the article, I commend him. This warning especially of CRT even in the contrast where I see differently is a great way to help people either refine their faith or come to a real faith to begin with. And in that sense, this article and his book are ways of absorption in the midst of Wiley context. In some ways Georgia Ruth perhaps I don’t hold the seeker friendly’s to much of a standard as I would see for the most part they are not the authentic faith. So they are like something else. I remember serving in the nursery ministry for a time at my church. Those of us in leadership put together a plan to share scripture with the kids…they was like 4 y.o. We are all shocked how much we did not have the language for them whatsoever. We dumbed it down…but we were still like 500 degrees way too hot. Maybe some of the seeker friendly’s are saved…but if they be saved is absolutely between them and God (because to me its more like a circus–went to a puppet show…i mean service…at a seeker friendly church there once). But take for example Pastor JD’s: Move them one step closer to Jesus. I so love that about the man. This is precious. This is His heart toward a world whose standards have fallen so far beneath the floorboards that I would see God in His mercy condescending in all manner of ways. Not in favor of compromise. Just because He cares so very very very much for souls so far off the map in the midst of an evil age and Laodicean church. Without Him they stand not a chance. They are surrounded.
WHEN WE MERELY BUY OUR FRIENDS
When Pastor JD says, bring them one step closer to Jesus, some might not see that as biblical. I believe you do. I know I do. Sometimes when with friends or such that are not believers and they know His word is hot in our hearts and toward them in Him…and yet we might go a season not always inviting to church not always asking spiritual questions etc. Maybe we go to the beach, we take a walk and talk about shoe making or whatever they are into. Or we go out of our way to pay for groceries or maybe even skip a service to take them to a matinee they have been wanting to see. Maybe they don’t make it through the rest of the week and saw we cared. And maybe the Holy Spirit uses that to bring them to him hours before they fade into the next world where we had no near contact to that moment concerning them. None of these are seeker friendly. If they are from His heart through ours. In the case of how God feels about His Gen Z creation, even though world markets think this or that (I have been exposed to hard conservative seminary-level teaching most of my life) God is not mocked. I watch those films…and the thought of another Jesus (deeply theologically knowing the one in our bibles–in my first masters seclar philosophy class I did my research paper on how only the bible has typology that is prophetic…no other book can claim this…as my thesis…you can imagine how that went over…lol), is not where my mind goes. In our context, my goodness…either the hour is late or it is not. I believe we have time for the solution to the seeker-friendly concern…but I don’t believe we have the time we might think too much heading it off – as it flowers into a leviathan. Seeing how we may purchase eternal friends I guess is my focus when I see this. Like out of the blunder of thousands, if our heavenly Father gains 1,000 new souls before 2024…let the rest be dross. But if by those movies 1,000 new souls came to Christ because of the reading online it leads to…I’m glad for those movies. While the whole world lies in the lap of the evil one and the world goes to hell in a hand basket…some souls found Christ as a result of its foolish mammon…i guess is where we might differ. Blessings.
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I understand Greg Laurie has produced (I believe) a movie coming out latter part of Feb called Jesus Revolution and it is in part his story. Has anyone seen the trailer?
A brother posted it on a telegram outreach ministry I am on and I watched the trailer , quickly mind you, but had a strong notion that this was another feel good Jesus. I guess we will see the full movie eventually to see if the true Jesus is revealed. People in that forum were feeling pretty confident that bc it was Greg Laurie it would be biblical. Well we shall see.
All this and the approach some of my brothers and sisters take to reach the lost- a seeker friendly approach - has me thinking more. I have always felt uncomfortable with a strong seeker friendly approach. For ex some of this outreach group will go to new age festivals dressed like Santa and hand out tracts . Some book called the Eternal Guru which I have not been able to see is handed out. It all made me very uncomfortable ; just not something I would do. I don’t like to use other books aside from THE BOOK.
But I know their motives are right and I know they speak the true Gospel and true Jesus.
I just read 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 and Pauls use of his freedom to preach the Gospel. If I am understanding him right it is ok to become like someone (without of course breaking Gods commands) to preach to them. I guess it must just not be something I am comfortable with in some situations . I guess anytime the seeker friendly is selling a different Jesus that’s the distinguishing problem. Having said that there are certainly different approaches that I am just not comfortable with. The main thing, I need to understand Pauls intent here and we know he was sharing the true Jesus , never compromising .
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I forgot to mention- it looks like they are using the same actor for Jesus as in the Chosen. That is concerning . That is another red flag and I can’t help but think what the motives are there .
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Excellent sermon. I agree with JD that the Covid jab and climate change are the two big deceptions we’re facing now.
This is a five-part series. I watched part one and highly recommend it. There is footage of Holocaust survivors comparing what they went through to the set-up we’re seeing now. It doesn’t happen quickly. It’s a long game, a slow, evil, planned agenda that is playing out before our eyes.
Part 1: Here We Go Again On Steroids | Childrens Health Defense
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Anyone following this new CHAT GPT AI. BAD BAD. THIS WILL CHANGE SO MUCH. HOW LONG WITH god wait and keep us in this mess. Here is a link from can some one pass this info so more can see? Pass on to JD to preach on. It’s. It just the jab. So much more goi g on to control.
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I quite agree. I do believe God can use anything to bring people to Him; I’m just not certain we should use just anything.
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Thanks Blessed. I love your discerning heart mixed with yet a desired empathy and genuine hope to understand truly. These things are in all of our laps today. And we will likely land in different places. My take would foremostly to consider our age. Pastor JD has rightly understood we are in an age of deception. And even though it is well noted that I do have my differences with all of that, on this update Pastor JD brought in the focus of the great apostasy in Christianity today. If we stay on the perch for a moment, well, the best way I have come to look upon all of this is the following:
- We live in a Laodicean era
- Much to most of Christianity is under the Laodicean influence
- Many churches orthodox follow a spirit of our age regardless of Laodicean influence
- God cares for the lost according to thick layers of deception that have dogpiled upon them
- God cares for the believer aware of the general overall bad state of the church
- We are transitioning toward the tribulation era
- But God!!!
If we keep all those things on our perch, here are some of my specific concerns:
- Greg Laurie preaches a true gospel but also influences believes toward wolfish sects
- Charles Stanley has not rebuked his son
- John Macarthur won’t rebuke Jack Hibbs & NAR affiliation (even though came against CC regarding Jesus movement)
- Conviction Farming – this is a tentative term i use to describe that the church has become me vs. you and your conviction. Or my conviction is more relevant than yours. And even though there are absolutes…the church posture is one upping each other.
- Joel Osteen – Just love yourself
- Seeker Friendly – Just love love love, have no doctrinal distinctions and all join hands
- End the Reformation and blend Protestantism with Catholicism
This is our world. This is our era. It is pretty thick with distortion. In addition, Christian historian Carl Trueman coined a term: “Orthodoxy as performing art.” How much of what is Churchianity in America (even though orthodox) not theatrics? Enough for one to lose one’s mind…But God. Something I have always loved about Pastor JD.
So taking into consideration everything i would just say we are in a Laodicean era that has touched everything. No one, no pastor, is immune. Some more, some less. But this is our day. So we trust God, walk in the Spirit and look toward the rapture but also all the things He’d want us to be about along the way. If we view through this filter it is “believers during a time where clarity and distinction (without His sprit) won’t go to well.”
As for the ad campaign He Gets Us, I’d just say in one sense even though this world is in rapid tailspin downgrade, He does get that. And understanding how a God who is about to radically pounce upon this world might consider us, however a father might, He far more. However a brother might, He far more. However a judge might, He far more. He is righteous beyond our knowing, yet His compassions are everlasting. There is a point He will pull the plug. Our focus is often to affirm biblical relevance to that. But beyond that there is also (since we know we know we know) that God knows. And these are the last days of His patience. He has 7 years to express what His patience ending looks like to His creation. Perhaps He is not in as much of a hurry as we might be…although it is totally understandable that our souls mourn for Him and His rightness upon the world.
As for Jesus Revolution, I don’'t really look at things like this from a perspective like: From within the church. I tend to look at more objectively than that. More like, 'Our context is the Church in Ladociean freefall and what God might be like at 90 seconds to midnight toward His creation?" That is my primary filter. So there are some good things about the Jesus People and a lot of bad. One good this 7 minute video:
A Christian Movie I’ll ACTUALLY Watch! Jesus Revolution Trailer Reaction - YouTube
Here is an archived 9 minute discussion look to get a slice of life during their day of the issues the church was facing back then.
David Wilkerson debates the Jesus People - YouTube
Maybe the following is good, maybe it is spammy: 1 minute
(4) What I Saw on the Set of Jesus Revolution - YouTube
I found not good controversial videos warning against Jesus Revolution. But i think there should be. However this is a sampling during their era to get a feel for the day…
Under 5 Minutes
(2) The Jesus People Movement Of The 1960s And 1970s - YouTube
Under Half Hour
(2) [background] to david wilkerson debates the jesus people - YouTube
Forty Five Minutes
(2) Jesus People Film 1972 - YouTube
John Macarthur is very thematic to this movement in that he did a Strange Fire conference in 2013. Troubled that CC did not distinguish themselves from the Jesus People. I believe that was a bit harsh. But in 2021 Macarthur did a conference with Jack Hibbs WITH NAR present and no rebuke whatever’s from Macarthur. Orthodoxy as performing art? In this 5 minute video we can see ANOTHER internal conflict of Macarthur over this issue.
(2) John MacArthur on Calvary Chapel-Denounce/Endorse - YouTube
All in all it is a troubling time. Lots of confusion. Lots of wrong. But God. I believe God will save many during our day. But we are to remain faithful and diligent. With an understanding that the church has had 2k years to prep for this. So a spoon full of wisdom therein added can’t hurt…lol. I hope this is somewhat helpful overview. Blessings.
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I love this update because things that confirm we are in a Laodicean era i believe are helpful insights for the body of Christ, amen. I’ll make this brief (well…my kind of brief…lol) since i have some longer posts here. I believe i have shared views more specific to the apostasy in the church today in relation to this update elsewhere in this thread. Please read those if interested. But on this one I did just want to point out a different correlator to the update.
As has been established over the years, my views differ on Trump from those of Pastor JD. Because our God given graces within the body of Christ, His spirit moving conviction upon us individually, and that of the United States Constitution that affords his freedom of speech, I applaud our differences although certainty do not see eye to eye in them. And in the spirit of unity (a topic of another recent update) I always seek to exercise (within His supernatural permissions granted to see a bit, notice a bit, move and live and have my being within the context of His body hopefully quite a bit more) a healthy respect toward diversity within the body of Christ. While always seeking a sincere care and a mature (hopefully…but not always) care towards those we might even somewhat strongly disagree with.
Having said all of that, I realize Pastor JD’s concerns towards Trump. I mentioned this in another update, but if Trump does not disavow the vax soon, i can’t see him survive our encroaching climate. I believe an avalanche of info will be coming forth regarding the vax. So i can understand Pastor JD having grave concern for Mr. Warp Speedster. Amen.
Having said that, many of the forum members know my own convictions on the matter. But on this recent note, I would just like to put it out there that it is a good reminder we live in a day and age where our bias will get the best of us. Not if, but when. It is good to keep this in mind.
Pastor JD mentioned that Trump petitioned Moderna in January 2020 to get a covid vax going. I have included a Mother Jones article (which is no friend of Trumps–they are far left). It appears what Pastor JD is referring to is a claim by Trumps daughter…which amounts to pulp culture intel. Sometimes helpful…but usually as an artifact more than, “a” fact. I realize Pastor JD has genuine concerns about Trump. But i would humbly like to request also a concern for the pulpit and office of Pastoral care in the Majestic Name of Jesus Christ. That his office is above pulp culture intel as fact to provide from as such from a pulpit. We all have a tendency to do that sort of thing. But the pastorate is a higher calling. We can kind of get away with it. Although we should not either.
In any event i might be mistaken, i am open to genuine proof (and reproof) beyond popular cultural social media meme-ish reporting that occurs all the time. So if i got this one wrong, please let me know. Its hard for us to keep story themes in our heads straight these days. So just my way of struggle to batten down my own hatches on the sober mindedness front. Some very professional types in the world get things wrong based on social media angles all the time. Especially the mainstream news. Oh my. I would just like to be of encouragement for us not to be tempted to go in that direction. Amen. Blessings.
Ivanka Trump Praises Her Dad for Vaccine Research Started Under Obama – Mother Jones
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@SteveCmpisi, this article has no relation to this sermon.
Look at year 2030 and 1 Billion people key words and think why?
What about the rest 7 Billion ppl? Are they useless class in future as Oracle Noah said for culling? Hmmmm
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An excellent observation.
Their consciences are seared by their own puffed up self image.
They will tell the same lie so many times that it becomes their truth. That is why it is so important to know the truth.
Truth of the matter is they have no Spiritual Gifts, you have to be born again to get them assigned by the Holy Spirit.
They are always self seeking having a form of Godliness to fool the weak, but in the end they are just hypocrites. Some are just better at it than others.
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Thank you @TCC for the reply. I was able to watch the first couple of videos.
I think at the end of the day, regarding the approaches some brethren may use to reach the lost (aka the Jesus movement), I believe the Word says-
- as Paul said , he becomes like the Gentiles (without law) and the Jew (with law) to preach Christ. So we know here and in another oasssge he says to be winsome. We also know he doesn’t compromise Gods truth in what he does.
- God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow so whether we are in Laodicea or elsewhere the Word stands
- His Word stands overall as the how to
I understand trying to connect with people at their level to get them to Jesus but when that becomes being like them where there is compromise or ungodliness then we know a line has been crossed. And, when literature other than the Bible is given, that’s a huge red flag.
So I think given the Laodicean timeframe we as brethren have to be very careful and intentional about staying rooted firmly in truth. I agree with @anchored. Although God had used many situations (where truth was compromised) for His glory it does not mean for one minute that we should be outside of His will in how we do things; how we share Jesus and what is shared.
As a different example, many believers have married unbelievers and sometimes in Gods mercy the unbeliever becomes a believer. Does that mean we should do that? Heavens no, the Word is clear, do not marry an unbeliever. Just because God did help a situation or save someone after we did something wrong ourselves does not mean we should do wrong or go against the Word.
So when evangelism ministries take liberty to use man’s wisdom instead of the full counsel of God on how and what they are sharing, the Holy Spirit raises alarm bells in the life of a born again believer bc we cannot follow / we do not feel comfortable following man’s ways. A lot of times these ministries are following man’s ideas .I run from those ministries .
I shared in the past how that was evident in a ministry I was part of. They wanted to invite Catholics and NAR into our evangelism group. Because they followed man’s wisdom and ecumenical ideas. Run like the wind from such entities. The apostles themselves went out with brethren who they knew were one of them. Simple truths all from the Bible. So when a group is not following Gods wisdom there is a check in a believers soul. Oh but when the world has the attention of the brethren oh then things look to be quite different.
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Very good example and well stated post!
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Thanks Blessed. And I concur. Personally I would not encourage the Jesus Revolution as a go to because it is connected with Greg Laurie who is connected with a scope and breadth of Christianity today that is not discerning against wolfish ministries. Plus there are a lot of concerns with the Jesus People movement to begin with. To me, this is marketing not another Christ, but marketing the grandiosity of Churchianity…which in ways has the correct Jesus on the shelf. As a Laodicean mindset self injects spiritual steroids into churchianity.
As for the Jesus Gets Us movement, I would see that more in respect to a paraministry that is watered down and has some good intentions mixed with layers and layers of sociological issues from strange cultural norms. However, in the Jesus Gets Us sense (as it is so removed from any mainstream platform outside of the ideologies of its designers), I would see those movies more along the lines of trying to relate to 4 year old. Or targeted to people who are deeply buried underneath miles of cultures distortions. Or at least i would understand it in the greater context of God having mercy on the incredibly dumbed down to come up for air even though the designers are likely compromised in ways. I would see He Gets Us in our context of 90 seconds to midnight rapture hour rescue. Many could be led astray by such means but a core number can and hopefully would come to see the full context of Christ for their lives in a day of such unprecedented deception.
Thank for engaging Blessed. I’d totally agree with you that we as believers are held to higher standards. Some have shared concern if showing up mass deception like 911 is the best way to help people see the real Jesus. I think pointing out deception as Pastor JD does is a reasonable means to wake people up although I would have some level of concern there as well. So I would compare a potentially flawed expose’ on touring deception in our age akin to casting a wide He Gets Us net. And in that way would see similar outreach methodology. Although with Pastor JD every video has the ABC, whereas He Gets Us makes you work for it (you can find it but you have to be willing to search for it…its there but also not there if you choose not to see kind of thing). If that makes sense?
In any case, I really appreciate your heart in these things Blessed, for us as a body to consider in such estranged days. Blessings.
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I believe this is a good example of distortion in the body dynamic today and how well intended ministry can go sideways and allow the enemy to run roughshod throughout the church. Many see Macarthur as a Calvinist and Lordship Salvationist and would consider him a wolf. Others, a very great number, would see him as a pillar of standing up for God in our climate (for his church did challenge Gavin Newsome and won against covid government overreach…which would help a lot of churches by default). Regardless the view, I believe this sort of thing is helpful as it fits the overview and overarching themes of effects of apostasy and Laodicean mindset creeping in all over the place in the church. Macarthur is known for his wide connection to “discernment” ministries today. And many views he has I would deem as very correct and responsible. He is viewed often as the gold standard in Christian character and defending the faith. I don’t believe Calvinism and Lordship Salvation rightly defend the faith. But our culture is exposed to discernment ministries via the mature and responsible arm of the reformed camp in so doing. And has great standing in the Christian community as well as many pockets of secular ideology (particularly conservative).
The following article asserts what happens when a church places too much self importance into its own sense of being and ministry. I would connect this to a Laodicean mindset because to me all that means (as I would see Laodicea as a saved church) is a church that exults its ministry over and above the work the spirit is doing in His church. All Macarthur has to do is open the door Jesus is knocking on. Blessings.
Grace Community Church Rejected Elder’s Calls to ‘Do Justi… | News & Reporting | Christianity Today
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