From co-conspirators of Event 201:
Happy that you are here with us. I love your hunger for the things of God.
I was fortunate enough to have been born shortly after the big flood.
I was nurtured in that old time religion when the gospel taught was pure
and with beautiful hymns that exalted Christ and the wonders of our God.
I can remember at a very young age in church loudly singing
Amazing Grace how sweet the sound
that saved a witch like me-----
and my dear old grandmother looking down and
saying, “no child, it’s wretch.”
I certainly didnt understand the beauty of the words of that song then,
but my long life has given me much opportunity to personally understand wretchedness.
Many of the new singers have replaced the word “wretch” in that song
Its not cool these days to consider oneself wretched.
I know that but for the grace of God there go I, and if my eyes are open to anything it has been a gift from God. That helps me to quickly forgive.
I’ve struggled with this but something got me thinking about it again today.
Physical circumcision… circumcision of the heart, or spiritual circumcision
Once you’ve been circumcised physically you cant be uncircumcised
So God would God also have made a circumcised heart that couldn’t be uncircumcised
I think he would, why would they different it’s the same law.
Anyone can say they are circumcised, when they have their pants on, you just have to take their word for it… but not everyone actually knows what circumcision is…especially if they were a child, we only know what things mean if we find out.
A bit later…
Being circumcised didnt stop some Jews from turning away from God, but they were still circumcised.
@Saved-by-Grace, Ed, I really think you have something here. This side of heaven, we’ll likely never solve the issue, but I certainly can see what you are saying.
I’ve never been cool in the eyes of God, I can only come before the Throne of Grace, with my wretchedness on my CV, and admit what He knows already.
Then be covered in the ONLY answer, the blood of Jesus, having my wretchedness changed into His imputed righteousness. HalleluYAH I can’t add anything to that formula.
Rev 3:17. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
I second the HalleluYAH!!!
It is an important question and I can’t tell you what I went through when I questioned my salvation as a new Christian.
Wondering if I’d lost salvation or if I was ever really saved to begin with. Horrible time to say the least.
I can say this though. The Holy Spirit can not be denied if he is in you. The conviction is real.
Romans 8:16 KJV
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God
So can or will I lose that? Personally I dont feel I can. When I fall and stumble, and I do, I feel the gut wrenching conviction that I’m grieving Christ.
I repent and ask forgiveness but I’m mindful always that I have to walk as he would want me to.
I’d have to say that I’m fully aware that all my actions, deeds and thoughts have consequences, when I was lost it was a matter of dont get caught!
I’m not trying to live for Christ in a legalistic way but I believe now I’m saved, that I should do good works in His name.
But is that what OSAS means?
A license to sin, and no internal change required?
Certainly some have made it that definition, but no one knows the heart of another except God. Anyone can claim to be a believer…
It is not accurate to assume that is the case though, and this is why I say OSAS is true for the true believer.
We see the outward appearance, and can not judge what is truly on the inside.
Remember that we are talking about Salvation, not the life long process of Sanctification.
A Christian will still deal with the consequences of their previous actions in life in the flesh.
Either Christ died for all sin, and saved all who accept Him and and have faith in Him without condition, or it’s a lie and we are all doomed and He is a fraud.
His gift is based on a Covenant He made and is solely up to Him to enforce and keep with no part on our own except to enter into it with Him, and once done, it is sealed and final and no one can pluck us from His hand (John 10:28-29). “No one” mean no one (including ourselves).
To say we can walk away from it, is to say that He is not able, or His work is not finished, or that we have to do something to maintain it. Eternal Salvation can not be eternal under these conditions.
2 Timothy 2:13
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
The flesh is crucified in Christ (we are walking corpses essentially), but our new reborn spirit is without sin since it is a part of His spirit given us.
This is proven in
1 Corinthians 5:5
Hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,
so that his spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord.
So the problem resolves down to authentic salvation or self deception.
Excellent observation and insight.
How is it that you tie these two groups together???
They are at the throne, they are in white robes, holding palm branches praising God along with the elders and the four living creatures, and in verse 15 their future is very positive and not discarded…
Macron is heavy candidate for AC I believe with all my heart
Taking into consideration that this epistle was addressed to a Jewish membership, I will stretch the scope just a bit more and start with verse 1.
In the context of verses 1-3, I see verses 4-6 as a rhetorical statement.
In other words, it is not saying that a person can remove themselves from salvation and has no other resolution…
…but it is saying that it is impossible for that condition to even exist, and couldn’t happen since the reason it’s impossible is because there would be no 2nd or 3rd crucifixion available.
It actually affirms to me that a believer can not stray from Salvation or lose it, but it is not addressing a believer in their path of Sanctification.
Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And this we will do, if God permits.
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.
These verses speak of one who has rejected Christ, not a believer (or a past believer)
This is a leveling of condemnation on an unbeliever who is still in their sins, who rejected the Gospel after hearing it.
If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume all adversaries.
Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
How much more severely do you think one deserves to be punished who has trampled on the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Okay, you said great multitude so…
Did you mean merely that there would be many?
Nope not saying that.
An unbeliever would never experience those things. You are right.
What I am saying is that that sentence gives the reasons it is impossible, and why I call it a rhetorical statement.
The statement is not about a believer who has removed themselves from the faith, it is about how that is an impossibility, given the reasons listed.
I have to think the author of Hebrews was addressing a very seriously legalistic mindset of the topic in the question they were answering.
Would have loved to see the other side of that conversation.
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance
Wondering that too.
Don’t argue with me hehe.
Yes Ed, I know it looks like that to you. But please get in line…take a number…the check is in the mail
Just playin around. Ok, but please keep in mind you are thinking in terms of Western 21st ideas. Put yourself back in the 1st century as a Hebrew.
We should not take transitional doctrine as though it were declarative to all generations.
As opposed to what? Going home, watching TV, and just doing the sports thing? You know…like takin a knew…no pledging to the flag…yeah like that?
Think about this though Ed. What is this apposed to? “Remember when you used to care. Now you just going around ripping off old ladies?” We need to ask “in contrast to what?” What is the point?
The point is: “Remember when you were enlightened (and the seed of truth was making its way into your heart/soil).” If a person confesses Christ and goes back to Judaism saying, “Nah…we need the law too…too much pressure not to.” Was that person saved? What happened to Mark? He got scared and went home. Felt shame and wanted to come back. He was saved. Someone who wants to go after Christ (while it was initially introduced) and then turns back to Judaism “while it is still an open temptation and available to do so–before 70AD,” would not be saved. How could they ultimately go back to the law?
Something we don’t share today. A MAJOR TRANSITION FROM JEW TO GENTILE–at least I believe, bro. We are not alive at a time when a new covenant was coming out challenging an old one. We are not alive at a time when Judaism ruled the religious world concerning the oracles of God. They haven’t for 2,000 years.
I don’t think this is a reasonable question. In all honesty Ed I think you are not coming at this from the best direction my brother. When we look at algebra we take “like terms” to simplify and boil down. So we are not looking at a 20 digit problem. We want to look at a 5 digit problem. I believe the way to boil it down is not try to match verses with theology. But to get our theology from exegesis. The study of culture, history, timing, significance, idioms etc. If we understand that Hebrews 6 & 10 are talking about returning to Judaism, we see the struggle. To me…it was like the Pharisees who saw miracles of Christ and could not be saved because of how they saw Him. To see God in the flesh start a new covenant and go back to the old means you have nowhere to go. It was a special point in time where it could only happen like that then…is how I understand it. How do we know?
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.
This is because the word of God was no longer, “don’t work on the sabbath or you are struck dead.” Now it was “Believe on My Son who died a brutal death for you. And if you don’t, you have denied God and have done worse than worked on the Sabbath by which instant stoning occurred.” People were stoned for disobeying the word. Then the word was made flesh. And they were commanded to obey. As a race…as a people (brought through Stephen Acts 7 & Paul up through Acts 28) and reject Him as a nation = not honoring the word. It is dismissing oneself from further real revelation (special revelation). There is no sacrifice after Christ. IMAGINE: “Go on sinning…i.e. trying to obtain salvation via the law of God.” Wow…the irony.
Brother I understand how you feel. But these people were telling Christ why they should be called believers. Its not about what they did. No one who comes like that is saved. When Christ turned to the other crowd in Matt 25 they said, “Lord when did we…?” I think the things to settle FIRST is what is actually being said and told before we go to these passages with all sorts of ideas. I used to do that a lot. But I’m just saying Ed…what I am sharing here is real. The emphasis away from eisegesis = clarity. Our age is knee deep and drowning in eisegeses. We need to learn the careful skill of exegesis. Or we will be approaching everything from mere emotions.
What if in the Old Testament you could lose your salvation? The Holy Spirit came to dwell in the Church and seal us. What if you cannot lose your salvation in the New Testament? How might you reconcile that trying to blend new wine into old wineskins? How much of what Jesus was saying was transitional? The more we are clear there…the easier everything falls into 4 dimensional place I believe. If that makes sense. Love you dear brother. I left my “please kick me” sign at home. But if you’d like, i can put it on my frisbee. Tag…your it…in
So true brother Ken
That is why it is so sad to see their doctor throwing their lives away by convincing them to get all yoked up on multiple toxic meds known to cause suicide ideation, and the loss of cause and effect thinking, ……then conducting covid jabs for the banana peel, when she AND her husband are medically “contraindicated” for ANY jabs.
Well said, and Agree a hundred percent.
I wish their doctor agreed too. They might still be well today.
I’ve seen a number of Christians who have taken the jab, remark that if there is any risk, no prob. Since they will simply see the Lord that much sooner if there is any issues later with the jab (? ) It’s sad.
We are not our own, but bought with a price, as the Word tells us.
It does cause me to wonder too if they stopped to consider what their decision may mean for the loved ones they leave behind.
I have to keep reminding myself that they are in their 70s. They are not toddlers. They are old enough to know better. Their doctor and pharma rules their lives, and as painful as it is to watch helplessly from the sidelines, while he negligently ends them, they too had a say and a choice to make in the matter. There was a crossroads somewhere.
We really cannot take responsibility for another’s lifetime of poor choices. Their diet for 30 years pretty much consisted of ice cream, hot dogs, and gas stationed food. The wife hates to cook. No adult can successfully claim infantile status when it comes to living with the reality of what they themselves chose and what they embraced most in this life.
Irony is, I used to think that if our family made healthy choices, ate right, stayed away from chem toxins, etc. as we did……that the fruits of caring for God’s temple may include being able to enjoy a little healthier life down the road.
Instead I’m learning that being surrounded by chem worshipers its kindof like a bad movie we can’t wake up from. Its like watching a loved one drink and drug themselves to death slowly, and being powerless to help or alter their course. And if one has the misfortune of also having a neighbor who enjoys poisoning the air, crops, water, and peace long enough---- it rather nullifies much of that hard work anyway. But God.
This world is not our home. But wow is it a dream come true for the devil and his chem pushers.
The good news is this veil of tears will soon be over, Jesus will triumph in the end. And the devil and all his sorcery chems won’t be anywhere to be found during the Millennium. The Lord said there will be an “abundance” of peace, joy., and healing It is hard to imagine now.
Thank you for speaking truth