And I’ve just been chatting about coincidences with @JesusSaviourPilotMe on June 13th update lol…
Isn’t it coincedental that all these coincidences could coincide in such a coincidental manner ?
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me n you are going to get on…
Like a huge house on fire 
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As long as we observe to sometimes agree that we don’t agree, agreeably. I’m sure if we do that then the house will probably burn down every time.
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Y’all do know there are no such things as coincidence???!!!
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Thanks Dan for your reply. I understand why you and Ed might see this as the 144k being literally in heaven. But I don’t think that is what is being shown here. A few reasons:
a) Christ does come to Mt. Zion (perhaps a presence affirming the rebirth of Israel even in the midst of tribulation and judgement upon the world, His appearing benevolent to them does have a place in this and Zachariah 14. Hmmm…odd how they are both chapter 14…lol.
b) The redeemed from the earth: Isaiah 44:22 / Gal 3:13 redemption is often seen as portrayed in as physical on earth.
c) First Fruits – Ephesians 1:12 “… to the end that [l]we who were the first to hope in the [m]Christ would be to the praise of His glory…” / Romans 8:23 “… And not only that , but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit…” ----- These can be taken as statements here on earth.
d) Please see a comparison juxtaposing Rev chapter 14 with Rev chapt 15: likely the same event…like a passing of a baton on from the gentiles (at least primarily) who did not take the mark or worship the beast but died for Christ names sake (up to that point under the final sequence of trumpets). The 144k look to be assigned to bowl judgement ministry (looking back too upon chapter 7) we see the term “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation” which is typically associated with the second half of the tribulation. In addition, please compare 7:16 “… nor will the sun [c]beat down on them, nor any scorching heat…” with Rev 16:8-9 (bowl judgement number 4): " 8 And the fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun, and it was given power to scorch people with fire. 9 And the people were scorched with [e]fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory."
. . . . .
Rev 14
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.
3 And they *sang [a]a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to learn the song except the 144,000 who had been purchased from the earth.
Rev 15
2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who were victorious [a]over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God. 3 And they sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,
8 And the fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun, and it was given power to scorch people with fire. 9 And the people were scorched with [e]fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.
“Great and marvelous are Your works,
Lord God, the Almighty;
Righteous and true are Your ways,
King of the [b]nations!
4 Who will not fear You, Lord, and glorify Your name?
For You alone are holy;
For all the nations will come and worship before You,
For Your [c]righteous acts have been revealed.”
. . . . .
I have wondered this too. I asked Rock Harbor Church and they sent me back an email but it is not overly clear how Israel is back in place at the time of Armageddon. I have never heard a good explanation of this. Great question. Blessings.
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Yes, this is more than amazing information. I was very blessed to see the Jewish preacher in China
Thank you,
Shalom
And you know Ed, coming from one calling Trump as Cyrus, challenging mores of the day I am no stranger to. I would differ on your take of the 144k. Not because I hold to Christian presumption. I admire you for not holding to Christian presumption…amen. However, we know that Israel (according to Old Testament promises) will be blessed according to God’s covenant with them during the millennial reign. In that sense maybe that is just it. Maybe there is no other promise. Maybe the 144k are first fruits of the millennial kingdom and that kingdom is the time they will evangelize.
However, I believe the picture the bible paints does substantiate the 12 tribes as ones who preach. Please see my following posts that hope to at least near an answer on that sort of thing. Blessings.
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I understand your take on this its a good study but I too see the 144,000 in the millennium serving with us. But seriously I see this time as the Boot Camp for all of that, we hit the ground running at the beginning of the millennium
If you watch this I believe you will see where the 144,000 might come from. Just as Paul was brought out from among them so maybe the ones that are resisting greatly now will be the ones.
They have such an encounter in this short video posted by a brother in the forum. Its 2 years old I believe so how much more now?
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As well as do I brother, So if now I believe what I was taught then find something like a great pearl. I repent to what I had to receive the Pearl into my life.
Shalom
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Perhaps the thought of why there are “2 Witnesses”?
Witness to what? The fraudulence of the AC as messiah, and witness to the authenticity of Christ as the true Messiah. What better than two OT prophets showing Israel that what they prophesied is fulfilled in Christ Jesus.
We know they start out at the beginning of the Tribulation and are killed and resurrected/raptured at the half way point. We also know they are for Israel alone.
We know all of this by Revelation 11.
We also know the 144k are “Sealed” from the twelve tribes of Israel because it says so in Revelation 7:4-8.
But what is their purpose?
Revelation 7:3 tells us their identity as the “Servants of our God”.
Revelation 14:1-5 tells us that they follow the Lamb wherever He goes and that they have been redeemed from among men as firstfruits (of Israel) to God and to the Lamb. They are virgins and have no lie within their mouths.
I have often wondered where the idea that they preach the gospel all over the world came from and have yet to see it.
Revelation 14:1-3 shows the 144k both at the Lamb’s side on Mount Zion, as well as before the throne singing along with the 4 living creatures and 24 elders a song only they know and can sing.
There are many points in the tribulation (outside of Israel) where “men yet refused to repent”, which begs the question, who gave them the idea that they might need to?
We do have the angel who preaches the gospel as mentioned above by Ed.
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Brother,
You know that was no special feat of the Devil, that was another setup by God same as when he allowed the fool to Crucify the Lord. So as to resurrect them before the world to prove himself strong in the front of the world.
Shalom
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So, is that the angel then that prophesies in Rev chapter 10? It is given to John. And that similar thing that happened to Ezekiel happened to John. When it happened to Ezekiel, God had him eat for a purpose declared why:
4 Then He said to me, “Son of man, [b]go to the house of Israel and speak with My words to them. 5 For you are not being sent to a people of [c]unintelligible speech or difficult language, but to the house of Israel, 6 nor to many peoples of [d]unintelligible speech or difficult language, whose words you cannot understand. [e]But I have sent you to [f]the people who understand you; 7 yet the house of Israel will not be willing to listen to you, since they are not willing to listen to Me. The entire house of Israel certainly is [g]stubborn and obstinate. 8 Behold, I have made your face just as hard as their faces, and your forehead just as hard as their foreheads. 9 Like emery harder than flint I have made your forehead. Do not be afraid of them or be dismayed before them, since they are a rebellious house.” 10 Moreover, He said to me, “Son of man, take into your heart all My words which I will speak to you and listen [h]closely. 11 [i]Go to the exiles, to the sons of your people, and speak to them and tell them, whether they listen or [j]not, ‘This is what the Lord [k]God says.’”
. . . . .
Now the book of Ezekiel in chapter 37 records the Jews coming back to their land. What Daniel shut up till the end for the time it is meant for and what Ezekiel preached even though they would not listen (in his book even predicting the return of Israel who was yet then in Babylonian captivity), is now both captured in Revelation 10. If Revelation 10 uses John as a proxy, what is he a proxy of? The angel in midheaven?
What do we see in chapter 10?
- Borrowed imagery from Daniel 12 – see those two figures standing in Daniel 12 and compare
- Borrowed concept from Daniel 12 – “Seal up” not permitting John to speak / Daniel “shut up.”
- John is not an angel and given a scroll like Ezekiel / Ez prophesied when he got his scroll to eat
- It is told to John after receiving the scroll to eat that “he must prophecy.”
Now we can say all this means is that John is now given the rest of the book of Revelation to tell about? And perhaps that qualifies as “things to come,” enough. But is there anything that occurs after chapter 3 that are not events also? Is there anything else we can look at in Revelation 4-22 that is not a future event? Is chapter 10 the only chapter that is not a future event? Where might this fit according to Rev chapter 1:
Therefore write the things which you have seen, [o]and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.
Perhaps we could say, as some in commentaries do, that Rev 12 first part is going back to Christ’s ascension. Yet we do not have confirmation of this. A sign is for the future not the past. So what else is mentioned in Revelation 4-22 that is not an event future?
. . . .
If Rev 10 means more than just John telling us the rest of the book, then who preaches? It is not the angel, but man. We are told this timeframe in Daniel 12 during the tribulation which is the timeframe Daniel will be revealed–and at least what the little book/scroll contains (the second half). So we have 4 things similar to Daniel 12 in Rev 10:
- Likely the second half “no longer a delay” – timeframe for Daniel’s disclosure
- Angel imagery
- Seal up the scroll
- Preach (Rev 10:11) And Daniel 12:3 “[b]those who have insight will shine like the glow of the [c]expanse of heaven, and those who [d]lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.”
Add Ezekiel to that dimension of Rev chapter 10 and you have 2 witnesses within the text chapter itself attesting to preaching.
. . . .
You will not find this in any commentary. I may be correct about Trump. Or I may not be correct about Trump. But about this, it is far more likely because if Israel were to come back on the seen as a national rep for God, it would be a big deal for God right? So chapter 7, 10, and 14 seem to be implying a big deal. If we go with Rev 10 as some future event, if not the 144k, then who? Someone is prophesying…and mentioned just before God gives closure to the two witnesses. Hope that is somewhat helpful brother. Blessings.
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I’m fascinated by y’all who are discussing 144,000 plus 2 witnesses 
How is it that 2 people can look at a glass of water and 1 sees the water and the other sees spots on the glass?
Fascinating, I tell ya. Genuinely!
Carry on 
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Why are the 144k sealed from Trumpets? To then just go to heaven at the point of the starting of bowls? Does not make a lot of sense to me though like that.
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To interject a hypothesis here…
Again what IF the 144,000 are representative of “a great multitude” John saw after saying about the 144,000?
If it’s a great multitude, then ALL have been sealed and are in heaven already, no trumpets needed for them…(just a kink in the wrench to ponder on)
Note…if you multiply 144,000 times say 3000 years, that’s 432 million from just the tribes…not counting all the women and children. A Great Multitude for sure!
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I’d be interested on your take of something I posted in reference to Ed as well, @FoxMan. Blessings.
PS – two things of interest to note in Rev 14. The ones singing before the throne are likely those found in Revelation 15. It does not say that the 144k are before the throne though as far as I can tell. Because those singing are the one’s who later in the chapter are noted as teaching their song to the 144k…who are not the ones stated singing before the throne.
Also what I notice is that this chapter 14 seems to make a distinction between Mount Zion and heaven. Christ is standing on Mount Zion with the 144k AND there are voices coming from heaven. Not Mount Zion. Just interesting nuances to note.
You might have been with us back in the day when I posted something about a seventh trumpet rapture concern? Even so you might not have seen it. I was perplexed and asked the forum to help me work through it. A very challenging position for me…for I never considered it before. You might know @oweng. He came along side and helped me walk through the rough spots. In doing so it called huge attention to chapters 14 and 15. I picked up several nuances i never noticed prior to having my little fall out…lol. So I know these things are super subtle. But they do seem perhaps to matter a bit I am thinking. Especially when Zachariah 14 has Christ on Mount Zion as a supportive presence for Israel appraently even during the tribulation days it would seem. Blessings.
Great point Redeemed I would like to take this opportunity to interject too for @Saved-by-Grace that when we look at chapter 7 and compare it to chapter 10 we see a similarity there too:
Rev 10:11
And they *said to me, “You must prophesy again concerning many peoples, nations, languages, and kings.”
Rev 7
every nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne.
Those in chapter 7 are definitely in heaven. So the match is the multitude of tongues and languages similarly found in Rev chapter 10.
Another interesting thing to note here @Redeemed777 is that the 144k seem to not be connected to heaven there. In stead it is enforced that they are protected for reason of remaining on earth. So chapter 7 seems to draw this specification and difference between those two groups. A logical outflow is that those in heaven there in chapter 7 are a result of the 144k. Verse 4 also specifies it is only the 144k that are sealed (at least if we just go by what is only written)"
Rev 7:2-3
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, holding the seal of the living God; and he called out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, or the sea, or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”
And we know that the 144k are alive on earth during the trumpet judgements, because as deep into it as trumpet 5, we see those 144k sealed are there on earth alive (which is 1 seal and 5 trumpets after this mention here of them):
Rev 9:4
4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
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