May 16 2021: Bible Prophecy Update

I don’t believe it will be America. I don’t believe America will matter at this point. God does not allow sharing of His glory in His Miracles. When Israel flees to the wilderness on two great wings of an eagle in Rev 12, it is a repeat of Exodus in nature. The Eagle is God in this symbolism. It is God who makes the earth to swallow up the flood sent by the beast after her.

This happens around the point of the half way mark of the tribulation. This is what I mean about Rev 12 covering a large period of time.


Exodus 19:4

‘You have seen for yourselves what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to Myself.

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There is the Bridge analogy… :slight_smile:

The sign that the “Bridge is out”
is not placed at the bridge
but miles before the bridge
to allow one to prepare for it.

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Yep, that’s it thanks.

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I believe you are correct about it except one point.

Instead of reading the word!

We shall see and hear the word preached to us, the word being Yeshua himself.
Shalom

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We do not now know what we will be, but we will be LIKE HIM.

We will know as we are known.

I can’t wait (but I have to) for this day.

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Hi Julie. I answer your question very briefly at the end. But “one” thing that helps me to gauge “a” strength of a view is to understand how it fits within the greater whole of the context it is also placed within corresponding to that view. I would like to provide that. In hopes it might be helpful to do so.

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DISCLAIMER: These are just my studied observations of the book of Revelation. They may be correct and they may be incorrect (or perhaps some blend of the two). These are my opinions and I welcome other views I do not hold for discussion in hopes we may all grow in the grace and knowledge of God together.
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I agree with both Dan and James that the woman is Israel. James and I have different understandings of Revelation. As for my view, and appreciate your asking, here is what I understand:

  1. Rev chap 1 is intro and looks to lay out a guide: Revelation 1:19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.”

  2. The vision that John sees in Rev one = vs 10-18 is “what you have seen”

  3. Chapters 2-3 are the churches that existed during the time of John that he was writing to, “what is now”

  4. And chapters 4+ are “what will take place later”

. . . . .

:large_blue_diamond: :large_blue_diamond: :large_blue_diamond: :large_blue_diamond: :large_blue_diamond: :large_blue_diamond: :large_blue_diamond: :large_blue_diamond: :large_blue_diamond: :large_blue_diamond: My Overview of Rev is the Following :large_blue_diamond: :large_blue_diamond: :large_blue_diamond: :large_blue_diamond: :large_blue_diamond: :large_blue_diamond: :large_blue_diamond: :large_blue_diamond:
. . . . .

Chapters

2-3 churches

4-5 Lamb worthy to open the scroll

:cactus: FIRST HALF OF TRIBULATION :cactus:

6 seal judgments (view in heaven of those who died in seal 5)

7 144k with juxtaposition (end of ch 6 = saints in heaven who died in trib seal 5) and flash forward (end of Ch 7 = saints evangelized by 144k in the great tribulation)

8-9 Trumpets judgments

:cactus: TRANSITION FROM FIRST HALF TO SECOND HALF :cactus:

10 Little book (I view this as the inauguration of 144k Jews)

11 FROM BEGINNING OF TRIBULATION Two Witnesses (I see them at beginning of trib because of their death ending after 3.5 years and the one out of the pit got supernatural power to kill them (5th seal area of time)

12 FROM BEGINNING OF TRIBULATION TO JUST PAST MIDPOINT

:cactus: SECOND HALF OF THE TRIBULATION :cactus:

13 From Dragon Landing to number of the beast (i see the dragon landing on earth near the midpoint

14 THE MIDDLE Interlude focus on 144k INNAGURATION after being sealed and protected during trumpets (these are the soul winners associated with the 2nd half)…ALSO – 3 warnings to come & peek preview (The Great Tribulation–2nd Half–table of contents) of reapers during the battle of Armageddon (which happens in ch 19).

15 Prelude to the bowl judgments (and midtrib saints singing back at 144k in Rev 14–as 144k are the new Israel accepting Jesus Christ)

16 The bowl judgments

17-18 Babylon the great destroyed (not sure if 17 = 1st half and 18 = 2nd half, or if two different overviews ultimately judged in bowl 7)

19 Armageddon

20 Millennial Kingdom

21-22 Eternal State

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:diamonds: :diamonds: :diamonds: :diamonds: :diamonds::diamonds: :diamonds: :diamonds: :diamonds: :diamonds: :diamonds: Specific Features :diamonds: :diamonds: :diamonds: :diamonds: :diamonds: :diamonds: :diamonds: :diamonds: :diamonds: :diamonds: :diamonds: :diamonds:

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THREE CELESTIAL SIGNS

Actually there are 4, but one is the Sign of the Son of Man. Omitting that one here are the three:

  1. Woman and Child (Rev 12:1-2, 5)
  2. Red Dragon (Rev 12:3-4)
  3. 7 Angels (Rev 15:1)

Out of all the book of Revelation there are only 4 signs. Signs point to a future event. There are 3 celestial signs (omitting the sign of the Son of Man). 1 is defined as the celestial sign for the bowl cycle judgements. Whatever these “signs” are, they indicate something big (a metanarrative). In the case of the sign of the Son of Man = Christ literal physical return. The 7 angels = bowls (the figurehead emblem for all 7 bowls). I believe with 2 judgement cycles remaining, the other 2 celestial signs may be the seals and trumpet cycles. When you look at trumpets, everything but 1 judgement is associated with 3rds. Where it is not a third it is Abaddon (a name). In Rev 12:4 we are introduced to the dragon associated with “3rd.” I believe Revelation is written in a literary form known as modular narrative and uses poetic links. I believe the 1/3 stars that are swept from heaven mean something. But I also believe the link of 1/3 can poetically hyperlink “trumpets.” So I believe the red dragon sign is for the figurehead for Trumpet judgements. And I believe that the woman and child is the sign for seals. It is non-ominous and likely seen during the age of grace (whereas trumpets and bowls will be during the judgement cycles already in action). I believe the child is the body of Christ the church (Rev 2:27). I see that the judgement cycles are linear and trumpets come out of the 7th seal while bowls come after the 7th trumpet (they follow after each other and are not concurrent). So this is the breakdown I see for judgement cycles:

  1. Woman and Child = Seals
  2. Red Dragon = Trumpets
  3. 7 Angels = Bowls

Some believe that the child is Jesus in reference to his ascension. I believe it is a sign for the future and is the body of the head rapture at some point during seals or at the start or just before tribulation. James (JFelts8021) view on this is interesting. I have never heard that one before linking Jesus to the baby at his return. In the sense of “birth pangs” I would say his view is highly credible. For Christ is the ultimate birth result of the tribulation as a whole in His return (if we look at the 7 year tribulation as birth pangs to his return). Kudos to James. But I would differ in that the child goes up “before” the dragon is thrown to earth. And when the dragon is on earth angry, he goes after the woman Israel. So now we are at the middle of the tribulation. If we take the linear stance of progression in the book, Christ will not return at the midpoint. So I do not see the baby fitting this very thoughtful and creative well envisioned stance of James, as the baby’s narrative in Revelation ends once ascended. Incidentally, I believe that the war in heaven that Michael is having against Satan is how angry Satan is over the saints getting glorified bodies and having a secure place in heaven…which Satan (the accuser of the brethren) is about to lose.

As for the rapture timing I would lean toward John being taken up in chapter 4 as a wink toward rapture timing. Which would be before any seals are open. This is highly likely in my view. But with one caveat: The seals sign is non-ominous and the 1st seal also (in my view) is the only judgement among all the cycles listed that is not ominous either. So I see the poetical use of modular narrative to possibly infer that the linking of two non-ominous figureheads or pictorial emblems of an event or package of events to perhaps match or link up. And in that creative sense, I believe that the rapture may occur in concurrence with the 1st seal. Or possibly just after it. In theory, if the child is the rapture, then it could be at any point along the seals path (if the woman and child are the celestial sign for seals). However, because seal 5 are killed saints, I would not think it likely that the rapture would occur between the 2nd and 3rd seal or the 3rd and 4th. Nor the 6th (although an excellent timing for it because I believe seal 6 possibly links to Joel’s prophecies of the time that Israel will have dreams and visions–and that would be a perfect tradeoff point where the church leaves and Israel gets freshly blessed to take the mantle from there). I do not hold a 6th seal rapture view. I believe that the rapture would not occur right after seal 5 deaths. Because God tells them more have to die. It would not seem in flow for the next event to be the rapture after Him telling them this. So to me it looks like a rapture before the tribulation, or at the tribulation between horse 1 & 2.

Modular Narrative

This is a literary style that came about in the 1800’s and uses flash forward and flash back and can poetically link story plotlines with clues. It tends to tell a story that way rather than linear or event by event. I see Revelation as a blend of linear as well as modular narrative. The ultimate use of modular narrative today is Hollywood and movies (screenplays). Because you can do a lot in cinema with telling a story that is not solely tied to sequence.

The Wilderness

In my view, those in Israel who flee the AC when he demands worship will be guided to an earthly safe haven. And will not be subject to temptations with the mark of the beast…but protected at some location in the world in the wilderness.

Hope this is helpful. Blessings.

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I agree James that the term is son. But please keep in mind, there is more than one metaphor. The body of Christ will not be female. But there are some interesting notes to the Strong’s helps “HELPS Word-studies”

https://bit.ly/3wxS4Ke

Strong's Greek: 5043. τέκνον (teknon) -- a child (of either sex) Can be male or female

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And please see Mark and Rev below regarding Strong’s on this. Can be child or children.

https://bit.ly/3bSkGpr

Mark 12:19 N-ANS

Revelation 12:5 N-NNS

Ultimately I believe it is male because Christ the head is male. And also child or children (representing 1, not many bodies, and also the church as a whole as children…simultaneously). Blessings.

Yep. looks like good and bad hit head on!!!

Yep, His pride and jealousy startered all of this.

Maranatha

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It also ties in with the Hebrew style of storytelling.

Again this example:

Shalom

All I know on this is Yeshua was not raptured by any definition of the word. He ascended slowly showering blessing on the believers below.

On the other hand we are yanked out of here like an eagle coming down and grabbing his prey right out of the hands of another!

Shalom

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I am thinking of Matthew 17, the account of the transfiguration, when Moses and Elijah appeared suddenly and disappeared in a flash. We will be changed into our immortal bodies instantaneously and poof! Physical laws no longer apply.

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Amen, I just have to keep in mind its when you think not and I think it’s tomorrow everyday so then it may be today:-)

Just an observation, not meant to anyone in particular or for an argument or admonishment :blush: Just something that came to me. :woman_shrugging:t3:

The Tribulation is not meant for the Church. Period.
Other than to share the seriousness of and the end result to Lost people, no where does God say we are to obsess about it. Read it and pray about those who will suffer, yes, we are to know that which we pray about.
He tells us to watch, to wait, pray, to share the Gospel and warn others and occupy until He comes.

Why is so much space and thought given to deciphering the Tribulation period by born again believers? We won’t be here. We will have done all we can to turn others to Christ, but we won’t be here to see the result from a human standpoint.

While I pray for Israel, I mostly thank God for the privilege of seeing the prophecies unfold and because of this I know what happens and am awed by it.
While I pray for lost family, friends and people across the globe, unless they get saved before the Rapture, we won’t know that either.
I realize everyone has their own idea of what Gods word says about the 7 year period and that knowledge is what is used if shared with lost folks but unless you plan to be here I don’t understand the obsession or maybe I should say the polite arguing or debating (only word I could think of) for it. :woman_shrugging:t3:

Anyhoo, just an observation. Carry on :wink:

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I still stick with the war in heaven at the start of trib. that’s why we have a man AC instead of Satan until the mid. and he loses the battle and is cast down toward the mid. We have no idea how long the war lasts, at least I don’t think we do.

So are you saying you are not pre-trib rapture of the body of Christ?

Shalom

Hi Teren

I have always thought the church is raptured before the first seal. If the church is not in Heaven before the first seal, then who do you believe the 24 elders represent?

You’ve mentioned numerous times thinking the white horseman might be non-ominous, hence not the antichrist as most believe. I had a thought about that, probably a lame one, but I’ll share anyway.

One meaning of a bow in scripture is doctrine and then the arrows/darts carry the truth but this bow has no arrows. And I read in Jer. 9:3 of a bow as a tongue shooting lies and thought wow, that could make sense because if there are no arrows to shoot then the white horseman’s bow would need to be used to shoot something else. Lies!

The other horsemen represent war and famine and death, so maybe the white horse isn’t an actual person, but represents deception.

Says a crown was given to him, not that he wore one or deserved one. So the crown could represent an attempt to control the world through deception. Or, and I know this is a stretch, could refer to a particular ongoing deception–corona means crown and whether it was created as part of a plan or seized upon as an opportunity, it’s being used by NWO to attempt to conquer.

I say attempt because folks are catching on to the danger and lawsuits have been filed around the world, so there’s at least a small possibility the current deception won’t go as planned. But they’ll just move on to the next deception or false flag (aliens or war or who know what) because as JD said in a prior update, it’s gone too far already. And when the Rapture happens, a bigger deception will come to cover up what really happened.

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Hi Violet, something else came to mind on this I wanted to share. I think in the situation with Renee, where the way she is looking at things might comport with Charles Bing I believe she is seeing accurately. But I don’t exactly think repenting of sin is a work necessarily. It can be. I believe that. But with every gracious fiber of respect toward your concern, and we can disagree, I believe there is a way to look at this that won’t exactly dismiss the import from the eminence of what Christ really meant by repent. For I do believe repentance chiefly is without question to believe on Him. To repent from a reality not recognizing God’s greatest offering…“His Son.” There are plenty of people that move from sinning to non-sinning ways in their life and some even go on to live moral lives and don’t know Christ. In the 1st century Israeli mind it is understandable why “they” may think of repentance from sin in an Old Testament manner that pales in comparison to having faith in the true and majestic Christ. But for gentiles, contrition may be a sense of dread over their condition in coming to Christ and be fitting as seen in the case of the tax collector and the Pharisee.

Having a broken spirit or a contrite heart or as the beatitudes say it, being poor in spirit, I believe is a part of a real, living, and vital relational dynamic with our dear Lord on an ongoing basis–because we are saved. To be of such heart in the process of sanctification or at the point of conversion, I honestly don’t think is actually the issue so much, as I understand it. I understand your concern. But if we believe and have repentance of sin, I don’t think Christ would look upon that as Christ + works. But I think in the case in Acts where Peter was used for the Jews to be pierced to the heart over killing Christ, it was well fitting that their repenting of that sin along with their recognizing Christ as messiah be simultaneous. I don’t see they needed to be told to repent from sin first. I see that because of their proximity to the death of Christ, in order to believe upon this One, they would have to know that He died for the sins because of and through the Jews. That was very important for them to understand. So for them to be told, don’t repent of sins to be saved would be no form of a work at all. It would be their normal heart cry to a situation utterly requiring it. If that makes sense? In my case, I just asked God to reveal Himself and was it true that He wanted the throne of my heart where I was on the throne of my heart? I just prayed and ask if God was real like that, to reveal Himself to me. I prayed that because I was interest to know and if there was a better life than the life of drugs. But I could have stayed like that for ever really. It’s all i knew. I was just thinking that if God is one out there having a different or better way, I’d ask Him. And the next day I woke up a believer.

I understand the concern over a Ray Comfort type ministry that uses the 10 commandments to help people see their need of Christ. In that respect I have no issue, in the sense that most people are not aware of their sin. But here is where we might differ a bit Violet. I would say that for Ray Comfort then to say you need to come to Christ for the remission of sins that you are aware of and forsake them as not altogether wrong. It could be. But I don’t think in a blanket way it is wrong. Here’s why: When witnessing to people that don’t know much or anything about Christ, it helps people understand that this is the Christ that gives remission to sins. And that this is the Christ to offer new life. And that this life is desired by Him to not have sin in it (in general). And in that respect it would be good for them to know a more profound context surrounding this Christ. As apposed to “just try Jesus.” I believe for context what Ray Comfort does is fine. Where the confusion and danger is is in blending repentance from sin as = to the import John the Baptist and Jesus have (IMHO) and would place on it. “Believe.” Since I stuck my neck out to stick out in small measure toward Ray Comfort I will also stick my neck out in opposition to that as well, where certainly warranted. For the danger I believe is where we might exult repenting from sin as though it were in the same universe as of repenting from unbelief. To mistake those two as the same, to me, is to make the mistake of calling the mountain of Zion, the mountain of Sinai (Gal 4:24-31). God will not share his glory. And there enlies the problem and danger I would whole heartedly agree with you concerning.

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In concerns of the the Spirit’s ministry…certainly we are told out rightly that He affirms our adopted status to His saints.

But drawing too great a line between how the Spirit may help us see our sin or be used to move us into growth beyond fleshy ways of thinking, even though it is not as overtly stated as His affirming our adoption status, the spirit will draw and convict…but not condemn. Even in the case of Ananias and Saphira (Acts 5) the Spirit through Peter gave them a chance to repent. Albeit an issue of interpretation as to whether or not those two were actually real saints can be debated. But they were met with a similar judgement described in 1 Cor 11:32 “But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.”

There can certainly be a lot of judgmental people in the church. And I think Renee feels that that is the devil accusing her. To me, that could just be judgy and critical people. Or it could be God granting her opportunity to take a look at herself and consider her ways. To dismiss it as black and white accusations i don’t think is a healthy outlook nor the best way to look at scripture. Surely there are times when people and harsh and critical towards us and they are wrong in doing so. Yet at the same time, what was pointed out regardless may have well been something we needed to hear too

I just wanted to make that clarification, because it is an area all of us in varying places in our sanctification will be struggle with understanding at times how to look upon a matter addressing us. And IMHO it is never always this or that…but quite often a blend even. I hope this finds its way in grace. Blessings dear sister.

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I like this :slight_smile:

Here are some commentaries on Rev 2:27. They associated the church with this verse and rule. Many commentaries do not. But in the scholarly world…it is up for debate. :slight_smile:

Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron,… Either with the Gospel, which is the rod of Christ’s strength, and is the power of God unto salvation, and by which the kingdom of Christ is enlarged, and the power of the church of Christ over the antichristian party is increased; or it may design great strictness and severity, with which the man of sin will be used by the saints of the most High, when they shall take away his dominion from him:

as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers; which may be expressive either of the breaking of rocky hearts in pieces at conversion, and of making souls humble and contrite; or of the irreparable ruin and destruction of antichrist, when the saints shall consume and destroy him:

even as I received of my Father; Christ, as God, has an underived power and government; but, as Mediator, his rule and power over the nations are asked by him, given to him, and received by him, Psalm 2:8. This “as” does not intend equality, but similitude; and denotes the participation the saints will have with Christ in the judgment and destruction of antichrist, and in his kingdom and power.

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Matthew Poole’s Commentary

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron: an iron rod either signifies a right rod, that will not be easily bent and made crooked; or a severe rod, which is most probably the sense: see Psalm 2:9 Psalm 12:5. The words by the psalmist are applied to Christ, and to the church, Revelation 12:5: to particular saints here, who rule the nations either in Christ their Head, or with Christ as their Chieftain, with the word of God powerfully convincing the world of sin and righteousness.

As the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers; and all paganism and heathen idolatries shall be broken in pieces. Or, in the day of judgment, the saints that persevere shall sit with Christ, and judge and condemn the world severely; and then they shall be broken in pieces, never again to be sodered or cemented.

Even as I received of my Father; for such a power and authority my Father hath given me, and I will give it to all them.

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Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

  1. From Ps 2:8, 9.

rule—literally, “rule as a shepherd.” In Ps 2:9 it is, “Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron.” The Septuagint, pointing the Hebrew word differently, read as Revelation here. The English Version of Ps 2:9 is doubtless right, as the parallel word, “dash in pieces,” proves. But the Spirit in this case sanctions the additional thought as true, that the Lord shall mingle mercy to some, with judgment on others; beginning by destroying His Antichristian foes, He shall reign in love over the rest. “Christ shall rule them with a scepter of iron, to make them capable of being ruled with a scepter of gold; severity first, that grace may come after” (Trench, who thinks we ought to translate “SCEPTER” for “rod,” as in Heb 1:8). “Shepherd” is used in Jer 6:3, of hostile rulers; so also in Zec 11:16. As severity here is the primary thought, “rule as a shepherd” seems to me to be used thus: He who would have shepherded them with a pastoral rod, shall, because of their hardened unbelief, shepherd them with a rod of iron.

shall they be broken—So one oldest manuscript, Vulgate, Syriac, and Coptic Versions read. But two oldest manuscripts, read, “as the vessels of a potter are broken to shivers.” A potter’s vessel dashed to pieces, because of its failing to answer the design of the maker, is the image to depict God’s sovereign power to give reprobates to destruction, not by caprice, but in the exercise of His righteous judgment. The saints shall be in Christ’s victorious “armies” when He shall inflict the last decisive blow, and afterwards shall reign with Him. Having by faith “overcome the world,” they shall also rule the world.

even as I—“as I also have received of (from) My Father,” namely, in Ps 2:7-9. Jesus had refused to receive the kingdom without the cross at Satan’s hands; He would receive it from none but the Father, who had appointed the cross as the path to the crown. As the Father has given the authority to Me over the heathen and uttermost parts of the earth, so I impart a share of it to My victorious disciple.
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Barnes’ Notes on the Bible

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron - There is an allusion here to Psalm 2:9; “Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.” There is a slight change in the passage, “he shall rule,” instead of “thou shalt break,” in order to adapt the language to the purpose of the speaker here. The allusion in the Psalm is to the Messiah as reigning triumphant over the nations, or subduing them under him; and the idea here, as in the previous verse, is, that his redeemed people will be associated with him in this dominion. To rule with a scepter of iron, is not to rule with a harsh and tyrannical sway, but with power that is firm and invincible. It denotes a government of strength, or one that cannot be successfully opposed; one in which the subjects are effectually subdued.

Thanks, but I need to clarify I think. I was not the one that initially brought up Renee, that was another poster who I’d have to scroll way back to even find. Okay, found it. Looks like around posts #202 it seems you guys were talking about repent before I even got into it. That was @Ready2Fly22 so hopefully she will see this and read your reply.

I had agreed with a comment she wrote because I learned about Renee on this forum and listened to some of her vids on problem verses and liked them. Then someone else commented saying she was hyper-grace and comparing her to Joseph Prince (who I have never listened to) and listed all these marks of hyper-grace… so I commented that none of the stuff I had listened to from her fit that list. That’s all it was about Renee for me but I did post about repent from Andy Woods page.

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Andy Woods has very sound teaching, and agrees with Pastor JDs teachings, esp about the rapture.
I enjoy his teaching style too, very calm and very clear and strait forward.

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