Love this explanation! Yes Andy Woods definitely reached clear gospel… love his teachings!
I am not sure why you are coming against Renee the way you? She is sharing the true gospel of Grace with thousands of people, she is sharing that you can be the worst of sinners and God will still save you because of what Jesus did for us. I know these sins are what Renee has admitted she used to do, and I find it commendable that she admits to having this level of sin in her life. She is showing even the worst of sinners can be saved. I know she even attempted suicide at one point because of false teachers telling her she had to stop sinning before she could be saved and she would try but had addictions she couldn’t overcome. She absolutely recognized she was a sinner and looked to Jesus as her savior… that is repentance. I have NEVER heard her say living a sinful life is ok, she constantly says Sin will effect your blessings, your rewards, and if bad enough the Lord may even take your life. I don’t understand at all why you say she is promoting living a sinful life?? Do you think you don’t sin any longer? We all still sin, not that it’s good but that’s the truth. I’m so confused by what your saying to be honest.
Last I checked this forum came under the banner of ‘JD Farag’, with the JD being an acronym for Jesus Disciple.
Therefore I would lovingly request that we cease any further avenues of conversation here with respect to any ‘teacher’ not called JD Farag or Jesus Christ.
The relevant topic is the Bible Prophecy Update of 16th May 2021 which concerns the current events and their alignment to Scriptural prophecy.
Romans 14 has a lot to say about these kind of things as does 1 Corinthians 10:23-26.
The idea being not to be a stumbling block to another, rather than harping on your own conscience.
I believe this concerns food, drink, smoking, other common sense things in our lives.
1 Corinthians 10:23-26
“Everything is permissible,” but not everything is beneficial.
“Everything is permissible,” but not everything is edifying.
No one should seek his own good, but the good of others.
Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience,
for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and the fullness thereof.”
So Tenpenny evidently believes in the idea many NAR seem to embrace that this is the devil’s last hurrah and then there will be a huge spiritual awakening (she says that at the 4 minute or so mark in this video). They also talk quite a bit in this about churches and why they are pushing vaccine after that as well.
Just sharing for anyone wondering what Tenpenny actually believed.
@Ready2Fly22 I needed to hear this, thank you, I’ve been looking for this answer!
I’ve really been learning and have been encouraged by your comments. Blessings.
I’ve been put through the wringer this month and this week and this is something the Holy Spirit has been showing me @NamDoc is another source for learning on this that I have benefited from in the past as well. We are so hopeless without Christ, our desperation for him has been revealed to me over and over again in these past few weeks, and this week especially. Thank you for your confirmation and encouragements.
We need Jesus. Without Him, we are so lost. I’m so grateful for what he has done for me. Hallelujah.
Thank you so much for letting me know you found this helpful, I have to admit the sharing of my testimony happened in an odd way… I hadn’t thought about sharing it at all, but last night I awoke around 2:30am, checked my messages and saw one from the forum and just starting typing it… like I just had a sudden desire to do so. I’ve never typed it all out before. That’s why I felt someone out there must have needed to hear it and yes absolutely we are definitely so lost, hopeless, and condemned without his love and what he did for us. I’ve come to realize whether it’s for salvation or even just from day to day to get through this crazy life, he’s MY ONLY HOPE. Be blessed and don’t let the false gospels and false teachers out there trouble you. Jesus has you and will never let you go.
Well i think many reject Christ or even the idea that God is real because accepting him as real they would have to admit to themselves that the things they do are sins… but they don’t want to accept that or acknowledge it even to themselves. Salvation doesn’t require one clean up their life, but it does require an acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of a savior. The “world” has convinced many that Christians are bigots, judgmental, and unloving because we call the things many enjoy sin. So I think it’s a refusal to change that mindset about sin, many want to continue in their sinful living without guilt - if they can continue that way and believe in their heart they are a “good person” and nothing is wrong with the things they do, they are content with that. And because of that it’s easier for them to believe “science”, the Big Bang theory, evolution, anything to avoid admitting they are doing anything wrong.
Hi @gigi, the Lord has put it on my heart now to fess up. I have no idea who this Renee Roland is. I’m on fire for the Lord and if you check my status, I’m a “respected” member of this community and have a badge to prove it! (Lord forgive me for possible pride here, just making a point). I am also a drinker and a vaper (gave up smoking 7 years ago) curse far too much and living in sin (though I swear our union was blessed when we met under the cross at a Christian retreat and my partner prayed over me) always asking for forgiveness I’ve prayed good and hard for healing for my addictions, living circumstances, bad language and demons to be cast out, but do you know what? In this respect the Lord hasn’t answered my prayers or given me the power to cast out demons.
What I do know is that my frailties don’t go unnoticed when I reach out to others committing similar sins. I find I can move and be effective in circles where people aren’t comfortable listening to people that are “Holier than thou” setting what they perceive as unattainable qualities given their life choices. I’m not proud of my addictions but I truly feel they’ve opened up conversations with many that feel salvation is out of their reach. I thank the Lord for the opportunities he’s provided and constantly pray for his forgiveness. We’re none of us perfect…BUT GOD can turn evil into good in the most weird and wonderful ways. Let’s not be quick to judge? Love the person not the sin.
Pray for me too? I’m pretty sure I won’t be vaping in heaven but so looking forward to the wine at the wedding feast!
Maranatha but not before we’ve reached out to all the lost within our own spheres of influence x
Iot? What is that
I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit.
For apart from Me you can do nothing.
@jasonacts177 I just notice your appeal. Brother I appreciate your heart and mean no disrespect by posting this. It is not something needed to keep going further in, understood. Beyond teachers, I think the forum is showing a measure of interest in concerns of the surrounding issues. As much as Pastor JD may afford the helpful ironing out of some of the concerns and issues presented here, it might be of aid and help to some in the community. Many of these things have long reaching consequences and under the banner of Pastor JD’s magnanimous heart and spirit I would hope at least this post might be helpful in forming healthiest of perspective. It is of reasonable import to this discussion that has so graciously occurred. Dear brother if this is something you might not find helpful in the community please feel free to remove it. I would heartily understand. To the measure it might be of aid to our community, I would petition you to consider in that light as well. Blessings.
. . . . .
@violet Thanks for your reply Violet and for your post bringing Ready2Fly444 into the conversation. Because of your interaction with us, God has seen fit to help us all process and grow together. That’s a pretty cool way to be in the middle of it all. And thanks for sharing the Andy Woods post. I really love that man and think, hands down, he has the most helpful and informative views on Lordship Salvation in video format I have yet come across over the years. I believe he has a 6 part series in it, and it was like eating a gourmet meal. Ironically I did not know Andy’s take as free grace specifically. After watching his Lordship Salvation series, I could have figured as much. But never saw his statements regarding free grace. And I am very blessed to be on a forum that honors this man and his views. I come from some seriously deep roots of Lordship Salvation. And it is wonderfully refreshing to see the heart’s of believers affirm the free grace position. It is still refreshing even though I have been out of the clutches of Lordship Salvation now for many years. And those ministries are heavily insulated like Fort Knox and impart a deep sense of insulation unto their followers. Some will never come out. It is extremely thick and can keep a soul in a rubber room endlessly. Additionally, from what I remember, it was rather addicting even…and certainly self confirming. A perfect cloak over the gospel. And a far more subtle paradigm than Calvinism (which in itself is becoming a pandemic these days as well). So, I am really grateful for your participation in our conversation and what you bring to the discussion. For today…has it not been “so much?”
. . . . .
@NamDoc Brother thank you for your service. Now I understand your username…lol. I believe.
Would any of us starting out as believers ever think that would be the obstacle course ahead of us? And yet how so very true I believe for many of us. Thanks for sharing yourself with us on this forum. Your wealth in life experience likely transcends us all. And what your bring to our forum has blessed so many over the months you have been on JDF.
Amen. It doesn’t always feel like we are on a journey. But it is true, very true, that we all are. And it is always helpful and good to be reminded. Recently i came across some youtube channels that share from several laypeople (facilitated by a truly servant oriented leader) perspectives collectively in video online chat format and use that approach to help one another contribute in the discussion as they work through several bible passages, or issues in the churches today. The idea is based on cultivating an arena where everyone gets to share their spiritual gifts and place in the body (whether an ear, eye, nose etc.) in helping the group as a dynamic grow together according to an Ephesians 4:16 principle. Perhaps much the way the 1st century church did. It tends to challenge and cleans trends and potential dogma sediment from settling too deeply within the hearts of believers and keeps learning and growing together alive and vibrant as it bypasses and sidesteps any need for confrontation or defensiveness. It seems that God is doing a rather unique work in the church these days. Amen. And a true blessing to have your participation in our forum. In many ways, perhaps JDF is also being shaped by God a bit more in a wildflower version of that kind of thing…where we get exposed to differing views that God may use to sharpen and refine us along the way.
Amen. And beautifully said
. . . . .
Thanks Ready for your reply. Thanks for sharing your testimony with us. Coming from a deep seated background similar to your own, we know there are a lot of us out there. This is not often an easy subject to discern. As we know so many robust ministries that have great fame and impact are caught up in Lordship Salvation. In some ways, the inmates have taken over the asylum, and have instituted a ruling principle over the land.
I am glad to hear that Andy Woods take on the matter is one this forum affirms. As some in the Lordship Salvation camp might view that as hyper-grace. Thanks too on how “Easy Believism,” was and is understood by you. My understanding of that was that if you can’t work with how Paul Washer or Ray Comfort instructed, you are guilty of “Easy Believism.” Historically, my view of that is similar to faith healers in ways perhaps. Only Lordship Salvationists don’t say “If you aren’t miraculously healed, it is because you did not have enough faith,” but rather “If you can’t mature in how we are instructing it is because you don’t trust Christ or know Him properly.” Which is a rather frightening schematic. In other words, “Do our version of Christianity or you likely not saved.” What a frightful place to be as instructors of the word. As well as straying into “the hopeless gospel,” as so may fall its consequence upon some to many parishioners. I believe those teaching it truly think it is a good and right thing to preach…as I think (as seen in your case) there are fringe benefits, potentially even. It is the kind of thing I believe that teachers of it (by its teaching) can inadvertently operate within its context vicariously holding up a proverbial gun of sorts upon our head to believe a systematic (as they deem right and true) or are fine with a somewhat shamed outcome for those less inclined.
Thanks for sharing this Ready. I do not perceive you directed any of your post at me. Lordship Salvation is extremely nuanced and problematic. There is “some” truth in it with a whole long winding rope of twistings. What I posted about Ray Comfort was for the effect of the example you gave in this quote. In affect, their ministry kind of serves as holding up the law. They, in effect, become a standard themselves by which we can be made aware of our need of a savior. To that extend I believe the Lord would use those ministries. For it is helpful for people to see their sin and need of Christ. And in our sanctification, we become all the more aware of this reality.
I come from the Godfather workshop of Lordship Salvation (of 20+ years), John MacArthur’s church. In deep research of his ministry philosophy Macarthur postures Lordship Salvation as the preferred boutique doctrine so as to call believers to their greatest potential (or at least that is the theory). Meanwhile, he also holds to free grace…but he can’t tell you that because Lordship Salvation is the preferred ideology he thinks you need to become the best you. You can find free grace in Macarthur’s commentary on 1 Corinthians. Macarthur is known for saying there is no such thing as a carnal Christian. Yet in the 1st Corinthians commentary Macarthur affirms that there is. So he knows that free grace is real. But he wants all believers to go to etiquette school, I believe, to learn to behave. As this pours out into the Christian community, the disparity of this approach to ministry can tend to blur lines as well as enforce black and white notions in people’s minds as well (at least where some gray may truly exist). So the camp is left with aftermath effect. And there enlies the difficulty. In the Macarthur mind ambiguity is a reasonable tension because it may cause a person to struggle for answers just like you did Ready. That is their ministry (Washer and Comfort + others are all under that missional banner). Lordship Salvation is a faceplate, a bugle call to attention. And as the believer discovers the nuances, the mature would imaginably come to the notion that it is good medicine for the body dynamic…so yeah…just go with it.
Another example of this is the book Macarthur wrote called “Slave.” It looks at the believers status in the slave to Christ sense and uses Matthew and Mark’s sense of “ransom” in that “Boutique” type genre reference in the book. Yet when Macarthur preaches on those verses in sermons he will preach it differently than is inferred by the book “Slave,” and give it its gospel traditional import. That way, he postures the pedigreed preferred theology of Lordship Salvation in the book Slave as a means of taming the Christian toward an attitude of submission, while simultaneously preaching in the pulpit the ancient free grace stance of “ransom” in the gospels.
In some ways this can develop uncertain mindsets. It can push one to the cross for mercy too. So in a sense, Lordship Salvation is the Christian performing art form of using “a” theology as a living theatrical showroom to drive like a schoolmaster to your true need of Christ. Its like an automated self learning AI program operating within the body of Christ to fulfill that function. I don’t agree with that style of ministry. But to the extent we can understand its phenomenon, it can help in understanding both the preciousness of free grace as well as foster concern for hyper-grace.
The irony is, that as Lordship Salvation posses as reality, it may import stress among believers. According to 1 Corinthians 11:19 Lordship Salvationists believe this verse to affirm a kind of wholesome friction to show oneself as “approved.” And they believe this is real. I understand that verse to mean “irony” and not affirmation, in that Paul was criticizing them for how they were being. Yet in the 21st century we accept varying shades of meaning as doctrines and it is upheld by many church elite – and so our worldview forms.
So I would like you to know I am well acquainted with all of this. And I do not take anything you posted as directed at me. If anything I am so grateful for Violent and you to help our forum world process such concerns. I am honored, truly, by your reply…not singled out I think Ray Comfort and Paul Washer have a place…the one I described. Does God need them to take that place? I don’t believe so. It has actually helped some like yourself. And so i can see its import. It is well known in Christendom that the Reformation church has a much deeper history with strong theological roots. And appear to be the “deeper” believers by contrast. And although I do think much awesome theological insight has come out of the Reformation camp, I view it mainly as a marketing campaign of sorts. So I brought up Ray Comfort not as in defense of him necessarily (btw you are way gracious in your reply and I well appreciate your heart), but as how I would understand a reasonable use of the law of God to front off our sin to us (which Ray does and had been used in your life to attest to its good part), as well as the pressure and offset from soundness that may ensue out of it as well. For apparently they both exist.
This is one main reason I am careful about what I call false teaching. Because there are several dynamics in operation going on here. Lordship Salvation is a masterful mistress that of its own weight is the mingling of varying scriptures that likely are divided rightly differently, as I see it. But you have attested to the sovereignty of God transcending some twists and turns to actually ultimately bring you to a better place in Him. Not a better place within the an arm twisting of sorts. But a better place in the truth of His word. So we see that all things do work to the benefit of those who love Christ…and His word is true, via His overcoming the twisted that proved true scripture via the problem of its twisted form. I believe the better portion of how ministry philosophy best facilitates the scriptures is to do what I commented to Namdoc. But for now, we have masters of the training wheels wielding Old Testament genre at the church (one can hope for good purpose). God is not taken by surprise. So when I see someone like Renee and I say she is against a Leviathan theological constructed (in earlier posts I made) I hope what I have mentioned here conveys that I was not just trying to be poetic in my use of “Leviathan.” She bucks against the twists but galvanizes herself at times into her own swirls. I don’t categorize that as false teaching just like I would not with those harboring or sheltering Leviathan unawares (or maybe even…those even aware). It is quite a bit of unreasonable shadow boxing to struggle through such theological noise. I see a struggling believer in her with a lot of wrong notions of how many heads Leviathan has. As far as I can tell, it goes quite a bit deeper down the rabbit hole than I have described here. But I hope to at least to have scratched a helpful sense of surface enough to make a sense in where I am coming from. What Renee believes does cripple her in places and is not proper and best at times (or in ways…even often) for the Christian community. But I can appreciate the reason for her struggle. And I am keeping an open mind potentially as to how she looks at the sower and the seed. Like I said, I’m not 100% with her on that. But there might be something there so I keep an eye out in case.
. . . . .
@alllllz Alison I hear what you are saying. And I am encouraged by the blessing of your heart in your willingness to dialogue in our cherished community in such a way. Amen.
The Ray Comfort / Paul Washer Reformation stance on obedience transforms into a theology known as Lordship Salvation (something I reference a bit in my reply to “Ready”). And in that view, many things are categorized as sin. To his credit, John Macarthur (who is the captain of sorts over the Lordship Salvation church) noted that things like smoking and drinking are left to individual conscience. No elder at his church drinks or smokes. But one of the heroes of the Reformed faith, Charles Spurgeon, known as the Prince of Preachers, smoked cigars. Macarthur did say in a sermon once that he ran into a member of his church that was smoking (a waitress at a restaurant), and when noticed she flinched and said, “As a believer, I can handle it.” To which Macarthur replied: “You can handle it, but can the unsaved you are serving?” The reformation stance on smoking and drinking would be don’t for the sake of others…as a recommendation. But leaves it up to each individual’s conscience. As for Renee announcing it like she did, well, the liberty one has in Christ should not be a flaunt as a gospel presentation–although i don’t think that was her intent.
Likely you are aware of this in scripture, but just as fill in…the early church had venues where they could purchase meat in the market place. Some venues were known to sell meat sacrificed to idols in the neighboring churches (perhaps at a discount?). So eating meat could have been seen as taboo because it might have been sacrificed to a demon. Paul affirms that strong believers can indeed eat meat in those cases because God created the meat and demons have no rightful claim. But weak Christians might have a problem with it. So for weak Christians to eat, it is sin. So Paul did not eat meat in the known company of the weak. But Paul would not announce it on Youtube that he eats meat sacrificed to demons. He would not see that as loving. That is what the issue was about (along with the strong and weak believers not being in contention with one another). Or at least that is where I understand the issue (others may differ).
I think Gigi is correct in her taking issue with Renee’s announcing that. I would also agree with her in that Renee should not use the word of God to eliminate penitential rebuke from the body of Christ and call it “the accuser.” That to me is a bit of an immature believer attitude. Hopefully Renee does know Christ (I believe she does–but only God knows). But she can be rather clumsy with the word in places, as far as I see it.
. . . . .
@Gigi Thanks for your concern of this issue. I think it is important to bring these things up and your heart of concern over them are of beautiful character in Christ. People are blessed from your concern and the Lord is using you in helpful ways. I know this issues concerns many. You have provided such opportunity for discussion and heart to be warned, understood and as the Lord might have. Bless you dear sister.
Me, too. He has been such a blessing to me in my growth this year.
BTW, was my response to your other post on Revelation bothersome in some way? Please feel free to let me know if my ideas were off the wall… I’m still searching and learning.
Your post brought me to share my story with you, because in a way, it is similar. I used to smoke and drink, curse and, before marriage, was wild as can be. After I was saved, I stopped all of those behaviors. But I was miserable. It was work and after a while I was quietly sneaking the smokes and the booze and drugs, and the cursing would pop out in a heated moment. Marriage stopped the running around. But there were years of struggle. And I was no good to anyone. My husband had been a “barstool Christian” when I met him and both of us took the same road of pretending, even to each other. I thought how am I any different than my lost neighbors and co-workers? What Jesus do I tell them about? I was not a new creation, I was a whitewashed mess. People can see through that kind of “witness.” I was saved, yet I was drowning. I probably acted like one of those “holier than thou” hypocrites you noted.
After moving away from all family and friends to another state, I continued going through the motions of being a Christian, but there was a disconnect. In my flesh I recognized the smoking was ridiculous and stopped that. (For someone afraid of suffocation, it seemed a no-brainer.)
I’ll throw in here that there is something to be said for physical separation from the past. It will drive you to Him or further away. In my case, the first half of my journey, drove me away. Now, the rest of the story, I have called out to God and He has really used isolation to get me to the end of myself and be still.
The drinking continued until I cried out to God to help me - I was so sick, and sick of my condition. He, in His sweet gentle way, brought a new Christian friend into my life who revealed she was a recovered alcoholic. I went to a meeting and decided I had that problem. But I went to the Lord, on my face, and in that still, small voice, He told me, for me, drinking was a sin. From that moment on I have seen it that way and miraculously, I have had no desire, no temptation, no need of it. It’s sin, for me, in my life it would interrupt my relationship with, and grieve, the Spirit, so I will not consider it.
After my husband died, opportunities arose to resort to other old BC (before Christ) behaviors, but in my heart, I knew it would be wrong. I had Christian friends tell me to “go ahead,” God will forgive you, He knows you are human. Yes, He would, but I would know it, and I would be the one to suffer the consequence of immorality, that which God says is sin. Yes, I could have gone back to my old ways, but I knew how that felt before I knew the Lord and the thought of it now was unacceptable. The test came and it was truly a fight between flesh and spirit, but spirit won. I am so glad. I am alone, but I am at peace. I imagine if I was alone and still had gone against what I knew to be right in God’s eyes. I much prefer a clear conscience.
So 2020, (and continuing into 2021), was a complete dive into the Word, time of prayer, worship, and relationship building with the Lord. I have learned to “BE STILL and know that I AM GOD.” He has done wonderful, amazing things in my life and I love Him more every day. I know it is ALL Him. I cannot wait to hear Him welcome me to paradise. I am happy and at peace, and never alone because He is with me. He is all I need to live. It may have taken decades for me to get here, but His timing is always perfect.
What I know is that Christ calls us to be new creatures, to walk a narrow path, to be set apart, to be different from those who are in the world. How can we give any hope to those around us who are floundering in their sin, miserable and looking for the way out? I had no peace or joy to share when I was doing what they were doing, nothing to offer them. Since I’ve stepped away from all that, the only thing I want is more of Him. And more of Him means closer to real Love. When that bleeds out to those around me, then I have something to share.
I finally realized/accepted being sensitive to the Spirit’s leading takes regular quiet time in the Word and prayer and that was hard for me. Once I realized the sweetness of those times, I make time every day. I saw this, referring to friends, “Some talk to you in their free time and some free their time to talk to you. Learn the difference.” I thought about how often I had treated God that way! I heard someone liken it to a love relationship, how you want to spend time together, read those letters, and talk as much as possible. So true!
I am not saying this is anything like what you described, I just know there was a time I knew I had nothing to offer others that was life-changing because my life had not changed. It had not changed because I thought I could do it. Once I truly gave up and gave it to God, He showed me where I was and He did the renovations. I reaped the new life! I am surely in no way “holier than thou” now, but I can understand those with similar life issues and I can share The Way, when the opportunity presents itself. Love any prayers coming this way!
This all reminds me that I have unbelieving family who are quick to fault both the hypocrite and the holier-than-thou. It certainly keeps my eyes on the road,
This is the truth. I’ve been convicted on this myself.
We are called to be in relationship with God through Jesus. How can it be so if we refuse to spend time with Him? Very true.
Truly this, Ed. Amen.
“Knowledge will increase.” Also as we draw nearer to the tribulation…it may be God too who permits WWW access to His word and varying denominational views to varying types of approaches to people as we are diving off a cliff headlong to the finish line.
I am like Paul in that I know and understand that I am among the vilest of sinners.
I pray for God daily to show me my heart and the grace to bear what I see.
When one places themselves in ministries as teachers of scripture thus influencing many and representing truth they are to be held accountable in their message and fruit.
I judge no one if they smoke or drink. I certainly dont consider they are sinning.
It is hard to completely convey ones purpose and message to anyone in person more so on a forum .
I judge no one here for anything. I will not judge you if you totally disagree an continue
to follow any person you choose.
My purpose was to inform and warn to any who might be interested as I found great worry
regarding a ministry.
I am very blessed and grateful to be here with all here.
@trustandfaith You are my precious sister here on the forum. I appreciate you.