thank you for this, I understand better now! <3
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Gigi, i appreciate you reaching out and respecting my opinion in Renee as a teacher. I also am glad to hear you understand we are all still sinners even after salvation. I just feel there has been an overwhelming focus here in some of these posts on other peoples sins. I choose to focus on Christ and his righteousness and I find when I focus on him instead of my flesh and what I can or can not achieve through my flesh, I tend to sin the least and can spread love and hope to others. I went back and read all your posts making sure I didnāt miss anything, but I have to be honest I donāt think youāve listened to Renee enough to understand her true views on scripture. She does say Paul is the apostle sent to the gentiles and thatās true. She does not say the Old Testament has no application to the believer, Iāve heard her teach many times from Old Testament verses often. She does preach repentance (in the correct context) - that you are changing your mind from trusting in anything else but Christ to save you or from trusting in Christ plus works, to trusting in nothing except Christ to save you. Iāve never once heard her say repentance is not required, she just defines itās correct meaning. She again does not promote living a sinful life, she fights against those claiming living a āholyā life is saving them. She may not appear good, or I suppose what you believe a Christian should look like. But God looks at the heart not the outward appearance and she loves the Lord, preaches the true gospel, is bringing many to Christ and is my sister in Christ. I just feel your observations are not exactly correct and your accusations (that sheās vile?) is extreme and unfounded. I will continue to listen to Renee.
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I am 
c h a r m e d
This would be the grand prize question. Of all things to ask, this is the question. Well done. Quite a tight box you just put me inā¦lol. Ouch. Thanks 
I take the 5th amendmentā¦ANDā¦I have a right to have an attorney present. NOT so fast thereā¦Violet 
Actually, for real. I mean it. This is the exact question about the 24 elders to ask me. For it is an awesome question. Okā¦so yeahā¦thanks for stopping byā¦gotta catch a train nowā¦
The reason I go through gyrations is because it took me a while to accept the 24 elders as people. I became convinced of that because of the KJV. Awesome. And then yeah I would totally see them as raptured. And I donāt have an answer for you. I am stumped. Its late. Iām tired. The dog ate my homework. And the answer (along with the check) is in the mail. Itās all good. Isnāt Christian love and acceptance just dandy? 
White horse, smite horse. Whatās the diff? 
Did I say āwhite horse?ā Hahaā¦yeah I was just joking. Good one Grasshopper. You have graduated and I approve of your progress. You grabbed the marble out of my hand. This was my planā¦all alongā¦see? Yeahā¦thatās the ticket 
. . . . .
If the 24 elders are the raptured saints. Then yes. You have me quite over a barrel. And I do think that they are the raptured saints. BUTā¦Iām gonna have to change that nowā¦hehe. Nice one Violet. Yes, I honestly did see them as the raptured church. My reasoning was: KJV confirms they are people and not angels. And a commentator said angels donāt have crowns. So when I heard that i heard this: āSaints only get crowns when they are resurrected.ā Which is not what I heard the commentator say actually.
You have caused me to rethink this Skywalkeress. Hmmmā¦okā¦two can play at that game 
I got my eyes on you. No more false moves. 
Actually that was a very true move, Violet. And it is beautiful. So hereās what weāre gonna doā¦
I looked at chapters 4 and 5 again. And I traded my rapture card in for 5 new cards. I need a new hand you know? As I am looking at it, do we really know that only resurrected saints get crowns? Who made up that rule? How do we know this? And why only 24? Is the occasion for more? Well actuallyā¦yes there is 
And thatās where I change my 5 new cards for a chess set. So iām gonna move the rook to queen 5, if thatās a chess thing. Seeā¦
Why am I so stubborn? I mean, like what kind of Christian wants to be here when the AC shows up? That person needs their head examined, right? Yeahā¦iād agree. I mean that is pretty desperate to NEED to be here for thatā¦or think life is not complete somehowā¦yeah? I will actually get into that in a bit. BUT FIRSTā¦gotta run for dinner
. . . . .
Ok, back. Thanks. Yeah it was great, thanks. Umā¦Salmon, baked potato and and frog legs. Wellā¦minus the legs. But it was goodā¦thanks. Okā¦so here we goā¦I donāt think the White Horse is AC. But i do want to be here for that. Because if it occurs like i think it mightā¦it would just make so much sense. What an exitā¦is what I am thinking. And if it is what I think and the rapture already happenedā¦thenā¦wellā¦you know its like when you are watching a movie and then the movie ends completely differently than you thought? And it all just happened like way too fast? Now donāt get me wrong. I look for the rapture every single night. And in some ways it would be a relief. Better tonight than 7 years from now. BUTā¦if God is going to do something super powerful on earth and its not ACā¦its like maybe a jet stream ride into the hands of the raptureā¦wowā¦what an awesome kick off. Not that the rapture is not. But it would be kind of romantic. Yeahā¦hopeless romantic here. Guilty as charged.
. . . . .
So if you look Rev 5:11 up in a Greek interlinear we can confuse ourselves into believing that perhaps their is also a myriad of elders? Seeā¦these are the new ones. Yeahā¦check it out. Thereās millions of them. So there. Case closed. NEXT. 
Iām gonna go to the rubber room now and ask for my medication 
I donāt think all that 5:11 jazz somehow is gonna fly.
. . . . .
Ok, so thanks for your patients. Hereās my final answer after stalling and buying time to save face, yeahā¦right. Ok, if the 24 elders is the church raptureā¦then yesā¦I would have to say you win. Ok, are you happy now? lol. Thanks for playing along. But yeah, Violet, you are very right if the 24 elders are the resurrected saintsā¦then that is PROOF we go up before the 1st seal. And that would be, case closed.
I agree they may well be actually. But there are quite a number of commentaries that suggest they are 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles. That would make sense. But not sure which 12 patriarchs. But Iāll buy that. In order to protect my church on earth during the first seal theoryā¦yeahā¦you better believe Iām buying that. Oh yeahā¦forgot. Sorry.
So bottom line you may be totally right Violet. And if that white horse is AC (which it could)ā¦yeahā¦thenā¦actually I am glad you are right.
I just donāt happen to think you are. So there
. . . . .
Noted. But would God in the grand finale make it that easy? We see the NWO and just go, ok? Sorry Violet, I have to make things difficult or it just is not fun. lol. āMove on to the next deception,ā I donāt mind discussing this prospect. But I donāt agree with that logic flow. I am of the school that is not looking for deception. We are still in the age of grace. I will deception over to those trapped upon the face of the earth when the age clock changes. I know there will be deception. In fact, we have it by the truck loads now. My point is just that if we absoletly cannot fathom it is more about God revealing than deceptionā¦to meā¦doing that is might be the deception. This is just my take though. I have details. But I am not without understanding as to why believers are sensitive to deception. Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death. Sensitive to deception like that? Not saying that believers are fear driven. But the potential is out there. Certainly. I think the white horse is actually a good judgement. I could be wrong. It could be the covenant with Israel for 7 years. But I think it is America coming back alive and the constitution is the bow. I knowā¦heresyā¦huh? lol. America is not suppose to be in prophecyā¦which is exactly why i might differ. But I knowā¦I live in some strange alley way. Its dark and dampā¦and we hear tin cans being kicked and cat growls. But that doesnāt mean its not only night time in the rain, the neighbor forgot to feed the poor kitty, and some kids were playing kick the canā¦now at the crack of dawn as the morning sun then just rises nextā¦its really like any other place on earth. Blessings.
PS ā I donāt know if you have seen my other posts on my white horse theory. But you have the gist here. It would likely sound like mere theoryā¦so i just gave you the gusto full can of soda water spray. If I am correctā¦its a bit of a slow crawl. But we would be seeing steam. No steamā¦and Terenās been a bad boy. And Ezekiel 38 hits. But imagineā¦what happens if that happens? If we have Ezekiel 38, how much longer are we gonna be here? How long will it take for peace to be on earth again for a second seal to then break it? How many years? That is what we might have to be thinking too. Again blessingsā¦and thanks for putting up with my banter and catching me in the act of not realizing how valuable the 24 elders just might be.
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I just donāt like it when people are smarter than me lol. Thanks Violet. You make some great points actually. I had a little fun with that since I guess i got lost in all the posts. Thanks for bringing this up. Because i donāt knowā¦i just spaced and actually donāt recall seeing that post. And I am grateful you reminded me. Blessings.
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Wow Karyn. Thanks for sharing. That is beautiful.
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I watched the video Gigi was referring to and I understood the message Renee was trying to convey was, as believers in Christ we have the righteousness of Christ and living our lives focusing on every little sin we commit is not healthy nor is it what scripture states we should do. She used cigarettes or a glass of wine, or maybe an AC/DC song as an exampleā¦ but you could replace that with so many different sins, eating way too much frozen pizza on a Sat night, watching a movie with a provocative scene, spending money on something we didnāt really need vs giving to the poor, never checking in on our widowed neighbor, watching sports on TV more than we spend reading our Bible (or starring at our iPhones for that matter) I mean the list could go on and onā¦ I think what some have failed to realize is that we are not only sinners, we are constant sinners! You and I and everyone else in the forum are constantly sinning everyday. And yes I believe the Holy Spirit will convict you if you are falling deeply into sin that will hurt you or others (which Renee spoke about and even stated sheās stopped certain things because she felt convicted to do so), but the life of the believer should be more Christ focused than flesh focused. So should we spend every waking moment we live trying to avoid every sin?? Which would be exhaustive and honestly impossible, or should we realize that we are free in Christ, saved by the blood of lamb, and have joy in that as we live our lives, sharing the good news with others and loving others - or should we condemn them?? Should we continue to constantly focus on our sin, and their sin, long after weāve already been washed and made clean by his blood through faith? Our flesh will always be flesh until we receive our glorified bodies. I think thatās all Renee was saying. Sheās being honest about the sins she still commits, are all of we?? It we sat down and examined ourselves - would there still be a plethora of sins we still allow to creep into our daily lives? I think if we were honest with ourselves we would find there is.
Just to show what I meanā¦ look at this list of sins according to the Bible. Itās so much more than most realize, and if one reads this list and doesnāt see their need for Jesus I donāt know what else to say. I also donāt know what else to say if anyone thinks they are coming close to avoiding all these sins.
https://www.wogim.org/sinlist.htm
Once we are saved we are free from the law, we are no longer under the law according to the scripture. Because the purpose of the law is a schoolmaster to bring us to faith in Jesus - not to be a list of rules for believers to follow. I really like his explanation of grace living if your interested.
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Amen. I radically agree. NEED TO STILL SEE THE VIDEO BUT OTHERWISE RADICALLY AGREE WITH WHAT YOU POSTED
Personally I think Renee is being authentic. And I find that incredibly endearing. Glad to hear she has mentioned that she does get convicted by the spirit. I believe you are well within your function as the part of the body the Lord has fashioned you as to see and express as you do. What my focus on something like this is more in line with is more on orientation than specifics about how a teaching is stated or received. People are coming from varying and different places on this JDF forum. And it is human nature to tend to takes sides on things. In many ways that is actually good. For to have conviction and defend it is an awesome trait. But also I see another thing.
The overarching ways we are thinking sometimes are well contrasted with opposing views. Amen. And that should be. But it is not the only way, I believe. A rudder on a ship is very small but changes massive orientation toward movement widely in another direction by that small adjustment. I have seen decades of what is considered false and not considered false teaching. The important senses we have upon what makes something a false doctrine can tend to cloud what might otherwise be revealed through equally important senses trained toward authentically understanding where those contrary to our belief system might be coming from. No one ever arrives. But to have freedom of motion uncluttered by what is clouded by the posture of what is perceived as false, is the moving of a mountain. And although also ābig,ā Jesus said we could.
I donāt mean the mountain of sin. But the mountain of perspective. Or perhaps the lack thereof. Of which every soul has plentyā¦self included and deluded. I believe there is a horizon wider than which view is correct. It dabbles in Paulās 1 Cor 12:31 sense: āAnd yet, I am going to show you a far better way.ā In this section Paul goes over in detail the differing parts of the body. Rather than what is true and false doctrineā¦or what the Corinthians thought in their minds that looked like (although extremely important as it pertains to scriptural intent), my focus is hopefully on that which is over the Luke 11:41 target. By understanding (Prov 4:7) we produce the fruit of scriptural intent. Not that we produce the word and its intent. Rather that in understanding we see more by which to be able to intendā¦by the living fruit the word produces in usā¦in faith.
Growth happens by learning the word and discerning the counterfeit. Amen. But as God has us realize that in ourselves we are to take abuse and repay in kindnessā¦that seems to be a lack of discernment. Yet why it is not is because we do this knowing the living truth and so we can. We are all messed up somewhere in understanding. To the extent where you find to bring the heart of Renee through helping community realize that which is beyond the appearance of problematic theological positions (amen), is to the extend those surrounding notions highlight they exist. Those surrounding notions are my focus. The clamation of what is or is not false doctrine. A matter of biblical reality. But also a matter of perspective. As the nation of Israel could attest to of the first century incident, had they the perspective today to. Polemics are not the only wayā¦is what I am sayingā¦i thinkā¦lolā¦if that makes sense. Blessings.
Wow @FearNot, Karen. What an amazing heart felt testimony. Iām so glad youāve shared as Iām sure youāll be an inspiration to many as well as me. Iāve been away in remote north Wales since lockdown over a year ago, away from the distracting crowds and bright lights and given the space to draw ever closer to the Lord and Iāve loved it. Though working from home, my time has been primarily spent in bible study, prayer and loving fellowship with my partnerā¦oh and tuning in live where I can to JD.
The Lord has called me back to my lovely home in Bristol for a short while and actually, Iām coping rather well with all the noise that I was shielding from. Iām well armed now and pray Iāll be a blessing to all those I interact with. I have a profound sense is sadness for the lost and trust in Lordās plan, the big one and for me personally. I have fully submitted to His will and know my tears will be wiped away.
God bless you Karen. Youāre in my prayers 
.
Emma x
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Good I donāt think the restrainer is the church either. The holy spirit is. It dwells in us but Iām unsure if we are the restrainer idk though
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I also watch her, I find nothing wrong, maybe because I agree with her take on Grace, Mostly because she is real. I identify with her more than most Christians online. I have learned the hard way, if you are to real with some in the church, you will be hurt.( by some)
Been there done that, NO more.
Matthew 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at this glutton and drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'
That scripture made HIM my hero, years ago, and I wanted to eat with someone who would eat with someone like me. (my ilk) vile.
Warmly Doc
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Many false Prophets and teacher will draw people to Christ and true repentance but they usually make the way harder, longer and more painful that they should.
If Christ knows the end from the beginning then he knows some must learn this way. I personally ran into every rock going down the river when making my way to the deeper things in Christ. Getting in the boat with Yeshua was easy learning to let him steer the boat was not.
Especially with the wrong teachers, its seem this Renee Roland may be one of those, I donāt care to spend the time with her to find outā¦
I believe thatās the difference @gigi the actual point she is trying to make you are convicted many many churches are teaching hyper grace means not conviction much less condemnation.
From your testimony ātrustandfaithā you make it clear the Holy Spirit convicts you when you fall short. Thank God for placing convictions on us to bring us back to the path of sanctification however hard that path may be for mostā¦ Itās all about relationship so that conviction draws us back to him.
But to me conviction is like the warning system in the body called nerves. You donāt embrace the pain as good you take it as a warning and turn (repent) from what you are doing that causes the pain. This for your own good. It may not kill you but sometimes you may wish you were dead.
I usually go to Paul and the message to the Gentiles but this seems appropriate to start.
When some teach its Ok to sin they miss the point donāt they?
Itās more correct to teach when you sin and you will, let conviction guide you back to the better path, But do not reject conviction and keep going your way as if you were never convicted nor teach the same to others.
Minimising or even boastinging of your sin should be a warning light for all to repent. I say we all need to turn back to the true path moment by moment is this world we walk in.
1 Peter 1:14
As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1 Peter 4:1-3
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; ā¦
But now Paul to the Gentiles:
Romans 6:15
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law, but under grace? Certainly not!
So what was Paul teaching us?
Romans 7:4
Therefore, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.
Shalom
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Aināt that the truth, when we finally do, itās a grace to not have to steer.
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Itās almost like taking a Sabbath rest, by golly I think it is The Sabbath Rest
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Yes Sir,
We are granted a Blessed Sabbath Rest everyday as believers, a better rest indeed.
Shalom
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Excellent, Decarlisle.
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On my part the horse is twice dead and in rapid need of burial.
Today I will go outside and dig holes in the dirt from whence I came and plant my lovely garden rather than dig myself another deep hole with another post of explanation in an effort to dig myself out from the last hole I dug with a post of explanation.
I fear that my multiple use of holes in this post will make me appear to think that I am more holey.
I may revisit this thread in a few months after the smell of the dead horse has disipated.
I apologize for my part in the continuation of running the poor critter to death by running it
in circles.
May abundant peace, love and Grace envelop each.
And may the Joy of the Lord be an abiding comfort in your lives.
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LOL. I was actually thinking something along these lines as I woke up today. thinking about how the last few churches Iāve gone to, where things get awkward once Iāve spoken my mind on something. things that no one up top wanted to discuss. and then itās hard for me to be there anymore. so I wonder if I should be at that point where I just donāt get so real? but then what good am I if I see the truth and let it pass? sigh, I just donāt know what to do sometimes.
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LOL, you crack me up, Teren.
Well, rest assured thatās not the case. Any reasonable insights I had are sure to have come from the Lord. Growing up, my own mother told me I had no common sense.
Hmā¦ I know white is equated with good and have heard some liken the bow to a covenant, but I prefer the ideas I outlined. For one thing, in my scenario the rapture happens sooner.
May I ask, how does your view of the white horse being good and America coming back differ from the popular idea of a coming awakening?
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