I’m suppose to be keeping my mouth shut right now, but, I just had to say to you @Gigi that digging holes is what I do best 
, so I’ll take your burden…
It’s never been a competition, but in this regard I am Holey’er than you. 
Enjoy the sun, enjoy the plants and flowers… And of course heal…
“Of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt.”
All my love in Christ 
Mmmmm…Jack obviously doesn’t know about the many holes I’ve dug…and then dug again for good measure 
lol a fox!!
Can we
for a while? 
By wrath of God, do you mean “bowl judgements?” The timing i see with Revelation is that the mark will occur at the midpoint or just a shade after. The two witnesses leave just before the 7th trumpet. So would you see that differently? Would you understand the trumpet judgements as not the wrath of God?
Pressure on clergy getting worse.
I have presented my take on rapture timing theory for six months in this forum. In many ways far more frequently that I do now…and this is the 1st time any one has asked me that. I realize my view may be incorrect and that it is perfectly in line for forum members to take issue and concern with it, amen. I would think it strange if that were not the case. But that 24 elder question has never been ask. And there has been plenty of pushback over the months for that question to emerge. Yet it never did until you. What is even more ironic Violet is that it never dawned on me to even make that connection. Which is why I made it playful because you “busted” me . And that is awesome. It is one of those subtle pictorial elements in Revelation that just kind of sit there quietly in the background. Like a most royal king kicking back in a lawn chair dangling his leg and wearing flipflops. We’d never guess the magnitude of his authority at a poolside barbeque.
Violet, as that 24 elder awareness at the throne room is plain and simply there in Rev 4 & 5…I would like you to consider how that sort of thing might look though too if i put that shirt on. For subtle notice also applies (although certainly not as plain and obvious as what you beautifully pointed out regarding the 24 elders…but perhaps mine might be a friendly neighbor to that) in one of the significant features I would be looking at as to why the rapture might be positioned in line with the 1st seal. Again…only a theory and creative way to look at things. But it is well in line with something just sitting there (potentially) in the background, perhaps also dangling its leg over one knee while sitting in a barbeque lawn chair
. . . . .
WHAT THAT SHIRT LOOKS LIKE ON ME (it would look a lot better though if i worked out) 
I think there is a preponderance of evidence that the rapture is prior to any seals being released. I understand that. So my alternative view is speculation of course but there are some significant matches to some of my observations. What I am presenting here is most certainly irregular exegesis (but perhaps not improper approaches altogether). One example of a significant match may be considered from a somewhat formulaic mode of observation:
Woman & Child (Rev 12:5) may be sign for SEALS (& of 3 celestial signs–Rev 12:1-2 & 5, 12:3-4, & 15:1) in Rev is THE ONLY benevolent pictorial emblem of the three) / 1st seal (compared to every other Revelation judgement) equally is non-ominous in comparison to any other.
In algebra we solve a complex problem by “gathering like terms” first. The bible is not an equation. But language has poetic form and structure.
In that sense, there is a possible hyperlink, in poetic form, of Rev 12:5 & Rev 6:2. “If” true, may have import as to matching like modes of expression (benevolent & non-ominous). Might suggest a concept of pictorial emblematic characteristic observation and approach. In this, the exegetical drive would come from the subtle nuance of the poetic pictorial underlying mood of both Rev 12:5 & Rev 6:2). In this case, it could be noticed as an outlier from the others. Might be nothing. But worth considering because the mood of the emblems have potential relationship when contrasted with their counterparts. That is not something we are adding to it. That is the potential language of mood (in contrast to their counterparts) it could be understood as distinguishing them from the others for purpose. This might have validity because it is something coming from the potential poetic structure inherent in the expressions of those two pictorial emblems. Not something we might try and force upon it. And in that way could be considered possibly as a raw data element in how time signatures or postulation of poetic theory could operate simply and pictorially within the concept of the simple images we are looking at. I have found some theology in Calvinism is too high minded. When we dumb it down…we see natural and simple wording in the word that transcends high minded doctrine that Calvinism would hold…and this, in a number of places. So God does not need for us to dumb things down necessarily…but in seeing truer theology in the bible than how Calvinism dresses it up, understanding how exegesis works as raw and natural info often transcends what we might otherwise dress it up as.
Again…this is merely an approach or consideration. It may not have any poetic connection at all. But one thing we could say is that both contrast all else other pictures associated with their corresponding groups or “sets.” And in that way it kind of self promotes a potential tendency to notice that they may indeed “stand out” in some way…and that without using too much effort to notice. This is merely an initial observation in how possibly to think upon some things differently or creatively (that “might” still be within the considerable purview of simple linguistics and obvious grammar structure).
. . . . .
I understand that irregular hermeneutics is not necessarily “a thing.” But it should have been for Israel in the 1st century, no? So, just hypothesizing, maybe its like that now too in some ways. In which? Not sure. But its not like we don’t have a blazingly HUGE example of just how God might expose how He runs concurrent with His word at “key moments” we might or could miss…is all. Food for thought. As we travel into answering your question, please permit any absurdity to be chalked up to my having been so long tarrying in the reformation denomination. And their special super focus on “the sovereignty of God.” Amen.
THE PROBLEM OF THE GREAT AWAKENING
I have done a lot of research for at least 4 years on this, but my observations are not influence by media or the opinion of others. My view in this respect is extremely rare (only know of two other people that share shades of it…but no one in its whole). So again, I would like to preface this by saying this is just creative irregular hermeneutics at best. And in fact, may be exactly not correct or reasonable. Even though I have this approach in mind, I do take into consideration how most of this forum might be viewing such a thing as The Great Awakening. For the initial problem it does present is how New Agey it all is. And that it has the strong potential of getting so many believers off into Alice in Wonderland mode…losing their minds…as well as (most concerning) diverting away from the word. Please note, I take that very seriously. That is no light phenomena. And is likely more an issue than my mere irregular hermeneutical approaches. Please be advised. It is healthy to not be too sure because only God knows how it might all work. Amen. And then of course there is that whole alien deception thing that if it comes into play…yeah…um…i guess…never mind? lol 
There are ways of viewing something outside the contextualization of media, church, or fringe groups. That would be the heart beat and nature of my irregular hermeneutical drive on this: Looking at something as one not effected by how current day rhetoric has so fashioned us to think about it…as well as how rhetorical familiarity in our world context may also provide the filters in our minds and hearts by which we look through to come to our conclusions.
The first really simple thing to look at is the rubric headline: Great Awakening. It is not original. It is borrowed. Might that matter or have any bearing? Maybe. And maybe not. But one thing I do note is this term as used in modern vernacular seems to be the focus. Perhaps the hyper focus. Or the most focused upon thing about it. The Great Awakening as used today is understood to be man’s insights heightened. If we stop there then yes it is a concern. Because if that is all we are looking at, it suggests a worship of self realization. And in that is where all or most of our modern day rhetorical focus is drawn to. If that is what is meant by what may occur, then heck yeah…warning Will Robinson…warning. But is that all there is on the table concerning such language? You see, in this sense, looking past the hype and spin put upon a thing can help clear the dust and fog of “our rhetorical moment” and provide us opportunity to step back for a moment. And ask the question a different way. Like, “Why this term?” Or what is it borrowing from?
During the Enlightenment period there were some notable preachers. Jonathan Edwards was among them. He was a part of the Great Awakening. And what that meant then was a true spiritual revival in contrast to the Age of Enlightenment unfolding. The Age of Enlightenment seems to be The Great Awakening instead meant today. Kind of like inverted book ends. For what once meant spiritual revival now means a new Age of Enlightenment for mankind. Is there anything to notice or draw from in comparing these odd bookends? I think there is. But to understand it somewhat, it helps to consider another bookend of sorts.
Philosophy had been thought of wide wise reaches into what is not known. Whereas in the modern era philosophers like Grassi looked to our common rhetorical discourse instead. How do things work today? We see advertisements. We have jingles. We associate items for sale with our lifestyle and what it says about us. All of these are senses of rhetoric as philosophy. Because out of common environment, we shape what things mean. And the modern era during the enlightenment caught on to this. Instead of superstition it brought us medicine and instead of the peasant and aristocracy it brought the practical potential of the advancement of the common man/woman. And now our world is no longer kings and queens, but Western democracy and enablement of generic human achievement. In some ways these are very good things for a culture. But the Great Awakening targeted offsetting temptations to be too allured by advancement. Even though in our age we operate largely out from modernity, there is still always new waves of insight, invention, and progress. Our age now meets too much info and corruption peeked blended. So to discover a world that can penetrate that paradigm, well with internet access and perception beyond the enclosed narrative of propaganda (shaping a society by mere closed-circuit media), this sort of paradigm crashing is possible. So is that perhaps an historic view of culture evolving? Perhaps. But is that the Great Awakening of Jonathan Edwards day? By far it is the actual reverse…yet using the same term. So that other bookend being a solid focus on “the rhetorical” and “our rhetorical moment.” For we have this in spades today, no?
. . . . .
THE BOTTOM LINE
Nowhere in scripture does it speak of an end time church revival. In fact, what we are seeing is more like a mini-great apostacy and leaning away from revival. Witchcraft and New Age concept seem to be taking the religious mantle. And in that we would be ridiculous to think some great revival come out of that. Instead we see 1) the inverted Great Awakening book end, and 2) Apostacy to match. Not to mention a large swath of pseudo-church premonition that glorious things are on the horizon. Victory in line with some humanistic Great Awakening. A scary time indeed. End of story?
Here is where irregular hermeneutic crashes the party–perhaps. We know that Daniel is an end time book just like the book of Revelation is. We know it is written in two different languages and is not written in chronological order for some effect. Perhaps those effects might be hermeneutical cues themselves. Subtly lying in the background on a lawn chair with leg dangling over the knee.
Now, please be patient here. This is where Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride is introduced. It is understood in prophetic principle that God has given near fulfillments to grander meant full-bodied later ultimate fulfillment of a prophecy. I believe this concept is known as dual prophecy. Here is where we get into the weeds of the potential of irregular hermeneutics. Let’s ask some questions. Is a vision Daniel sees different than what a worldly king might dream? If so, how so? In Daniel 7 Daniel has a vision of four animals. This vision came after King Nebuchadnezzar died. Yet, the lion is understood as Babylon and a dual reference to Nebuchadnezzar’s 7 year beasting in the field revival and the humanizing of later Babylonian culture. So, is that vision past in time in part and future in time in another? Perhaps. For we see Medo-Persia and Greece (yet near future) in it. But to the extent visions are more about the future than the past might provide a measure of insight outside of the commonly noted commentary analysis of Daniel’s vision.
In Revelation 13:2 see we see these animals under the beast overarching rubric. Is Revelation 13:2 future? The consideration of those animals Daniel saw are in the future…at least. Yet this is prophecy…so yeah…let’s not go off the deep end. All we can say is, yes, they are also future and perhaps could carry double meaning. Like perhaps the nations do not have to be consistent necessarily. And whatever the case, they are future and we have to somehow deal with that. Historically the most significant societal change came upon the wings of democracy. Ironically just around the time of the enlightenment period and the Great Awakening. Now, we have a signature of a time in history that has rhetoric attached: “The Great Awakening.” And out of all the modern advances, which transformed the world the most? Democracy…likely. Perhaps a foremost thought upon Daniel’s 4 animal vision related to end time nations?
In Daniel 7:17-18 we are told:
“These great beasts, which are four in number , are four kings who will arise from the earth. 18 But the [q]saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and take possession of the kingdom forever, [r]for all ages to come.”
And again in verse 22:
“…the [x]saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the [y]saints took possession of the kingdom.”
Whatever is important about these animal nations, they most certainly serve placement along the direct path leaning toward the time the saints get the millennial rule kingdom of Christ.
Perhaps the lion in Daniel’s vision represented a nation beast known as a lion, England (the reformation period). And the wings of the eagle the USA. A beast is a kingdom. Yet the lion got a heart like a man…democracy? If true, that would map the USA among the end time nations and also highlight a new era. A time of democratizing under the same timing banner as the Enlightenment period and the Great Awakening. Might that mean anything as a societal changing historical mapper? In other words, might “The Great Awakening” be an echo of spot light on the lion who lost its wings and got the heart of a man? If so, might that be a cue to a spotlight on America? If this is permissible, it would be the irregular hermeneutic of hyperlinking rhetorical time period signatures. And since we know the end times does not come with a great revival, in hearing once again “The Great Awakening,” it may serve primarily as a marker and highlighter (a book end of sorts). If all we are looking at is its morbid import, i.e. the New Age movement associated with it. Might we possibly miss a potential grander marker in its meaning?
In other words…is there a way to understand the rhetorical value of an echo of rhetoric as perhaps more than our colloquial mere understanding of its familiar value to us in our modern moment? We know eisegesis is the opposite of exegesis. And reading our modern insight into the context of 1st century scripture gets us into trouble. So if we look at the grander scope of history is it perhaps possible that localizing our claim on our modern sense of “The Great Awakening” propaganda and rhetorical value and meaning are too looked upon through “selfie” eyes? We likely are the selfie generation and the most known psychosocially as “the most” narcissistic era in known world history (which is hard to grasp when we contrast democracy against previous eras of monarchy…but ok)…likely in keeping with 2 Tim 3:2. For most of us see we are that generation spoken of. And it is becoming more so every passing day.
So my answer? If we look at “The Great Awakening” as a time signature marker highlighting a local, well, that would be my answer more than what our snapshot moment in history would build it up to be. Merely a marker. That leaves room for how God might then use it. To consider in this light considers a slow thoughtful historical view. And although it may not be accurate, it certainly could be reasonably argued that it may well compete and exceed the momentary fashionista spin our moment in time temporally looks at it as.
Do I see a great rival? No. I think there are dangers in the New Age coop of the term. For sure. But I don’t see that coop as the end of the story. Its like a flashy cover perhaps on a book that when reading it might be rather intuitive and intimate and nothing like its flashy cover. But for those who don’t read the book…its just a book on a shelf with flashy glitter all over it…not worth taking a second look at. By this do I mean there is some value in the New Age concept of The Great Awakening? No. Not at all. What is a danger in New Age is its own stand alone danger and certainly a marker of its own in our age. What I am saying is that I don’t let the New Age necessarily define what might have been God’s vernacular first. Hint: The great awakening was about revival. And if God maps with that rhetoric, why just sign that illusionary package as if it may only belong to the New Agers?
I don’t know what God may do with it all. But you see the steps I am willing to consider outside of my convenient and immediate context? It is at least worthy to consider, I believe. If this timeframe is the 1st seal. I would imagine apocalyptic power be introduced as the signature of the one about to pound the earth. That He is good and means to bless. But for 7 years commeth…that is so over. I don’t forbid the concept that it could be a box of cats of deception. BUT GOD. So, just saying. I wouldn’t just sign and hand over that package to the New Agers. Because of the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7. I hope that makes some sense. Thanks for taking the time to read. You asked…lol. Blessings.
Okay, I thought about this some more. It seems likely that a lot of folks will come to Him right after the Rapture. So it could maybe fit that if the white horseman were good as you put forth, then maybe the bow represents the truth of the Word of God and it conquers after the Rapture using the arrows of the church’s testimony shared with those around us before we were taken up.
Thanks for the motivation to consider it from another angle, @TCC.
EDITED: Oops. I didn’t see your other post before I posted this. Reading it now.
Hi, I watched this as well. I think the people cheered a little more than normal because of a deep concern and care for Amir. He was in Israel with rockets flying about and they were being loving and supportive. I have never sensed that Amir or any other person is being inappropriately ‘worshipped’. The solid Gospel is preached and end times prophecies are brought up often. I am always encouraged by Amir, Pastor Jack, Pastor JD, Jan Markell. Barry Stagner, Tom Hughes and a lot of other Calvary Chapel folks - though not all of them associated with Calvary Chapel.
One of my reformation favorite commentaries is Lenski. He sees the white horse first seal as the word of God. You are not alone. For centuries the white horse was considered Christ because that is also the way it ends. But these are two different horses and kings. But for centuries that was the predominant view I believe. The white horse as antichrist is our modern thoughts upon it. Lenski is kind of old school having lived though in the 20th century. I tend to think a crown will go on a man. If it goes the way I conjecture…I would imagine Trump to be that 1st seal. Which doesn’t get me many brownie points…lol. The 1st seal does not have to be godly if good. BUT GOD.
That was not my first thought of him… but was trying to look at him as good from @TCC pov to see what I could come up with.
My earlier post said this though, and I still lean that way. But it was interesting to look at it from another side.
James, before yesterday i would not have agreed with you. But I find no commentators that actually think this is the raptured church. That is what I thought before. But I think you are correct brother. We differ on timing, but we do agree YAHOO on the 24 elders. On my end…thanks to Violet. That is rather a paradigm shift for me. I know she did not mean it in this way. I mean only God knows…maybe it is the raptured church. But NOW I am leaning in how you also see it. Most commentators agree. I don’t always agree with them. But in this case, it helps my case…lol. PS – I am fine if God wants to rapture us today, amen. Blessings.
Thanks for venturing out on a limb with me though Violet. My answer to James on this would be white is normally associated with purity. And although it could be a false white…the text does not say that. However, (and @Violet this may also interest you) we do have a white horse among four previous to Revelation. It is in the book of Zachariah. And although some see this also as the four horsemen, I do not. These are not the same as Revelation 6. But what we do find is a white horse among 4. And that white horse is identified by scholars often as Cyrus. Who was “chosen” by God as good for Israel. Do we have another reference of a white horse other than Revelation that suggests we think upon Rev 6:2 as deception? Where in the word is that deceptive white horse comparative? I know the answer comes with Matt 24. And we can go there. But there is no horse there is what i am saying. Blessings.
Well God may not but I think you should consider the headache you gave me trying to keep up with this my pot is boiling over.
I looked for a Rev 12:5 & Rev 6:2 chiastic diagram connection haven’t found one yet.
OK, mass programing for the slow ones here correct?
Unfortunately it’s not all material some is even on the supernatural level using subliminal messaging and background noise and drugs legal and illegal. And when they add LSD into the mix we don’t want to be here.
Yea, I know I am all over the map here, sorry.
Well I understand that part and agree it’s basically a setup that even social warrior christians will buy in even though many are being warned daily its false doctrine…
Shalom
Interesting… I have not considered that and will have to study it some. Thanks.
Sorry I have not read that… is it in this thread or some other thread? If this one, do you know the message number?
So if the first four seals are already opened, then where do you see us at in the timeline? What do you see as the next event to occur… the rapture? or seal five (a period of persecution?) or ?
The Chiastic of Rev on that would have the seals opposite the bowls. So like 1st / last. Rev 12 in my understanding is from the beginning of the tribulation to just past the midpoint. So the focus:
6 & 7 = seals
8-9 = trumpets
10 = midpoint (Israel revived via 144k) Midpoint regarding revived Israel
11 = from beginning to midpoint (two witnesses) Beginning to mid regarding two witnesses
12 = from beginning to midpoint (Church / Israel) Beginning to mid with church split off / Israel
13 - 19 (last half)
To me the focus Revelation puts on Israel revival is huge. Even chapter 11 highlights the temple rebuild and the two witnesses in theory keep the AC from jumping over the supernatural fence…it would seem.
But the woman / child seem to be a sign for seals giving during the age of grace (because of its benevolent imagery). Just saying…if true, it is rolling out with the seals…and that starts with the 1st one. We could see this sign in age of grace prior to the seals rolling out.
Israel revival
This is the Great Awakening that counters the False Awakening of Satan
I believe you are seeing clearly.
I feel you on this. just want to vent my coordinating thoughts here. the leaders I look up to below God never broadcast applause. the mission is what they want you to pay attention to. amir being up on big stage with big audience that claps for him the way you would for an entertainer at the end, has made me uneasy, same with Ravi zacharias, who ended up being a big hypocrite. he had the same stage presence with a crowd that cheers at the end. I am not against cheering after hearing fit words spoken, but I get an icky feeling when it is highlighted in these professional, broadcasted settings, where I feel it should be humbler than that, if the real mission is God’s- they could edit out the cheering, and I dislike that it is included in the final video. Farag and my other spiritual leaders, like Brandon Holthaus and Sydna Masse, simply make it about the message and never try to insert how popular they are perceived even though they have so many “followers” themselves.
so yeah, I feel you on this.