The Books are now open and much less through the veil as our brothers and sisters before us.
Amen we are about to arrive in heaven and they are about to arrive on earth!
Shalom
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Yeah no doubt Dan. It is quite possible that the 24 elders are the church. And in that, sure, we would be up there before anything significant goes down. I still hold to that possibility. By reading commentaries I do not side with any mere manâs interpretation. But it is good to look at commentaries as reference.
Ephesians 4:11-12
And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to equip the saints for works of ministry and to build up the body of Christ,
In part, some of those teachers God gave us. And in part, this is how He told us His spirit works within the body. I know the adage that we should just get from the Spirit and not trust the opinions of men. But someone sticking too strictly to that omits the reasonableness by what God uses to inform upon our maturity. It is not either or. Either commentary or the spirit teaching us all things. But it would appear from the words of scripture itself that God uses both.
Most commentaries see the 24 elders not as spirits that are not men. It is clear they are the redeemed out of mankind. When we seen crowns we think it must be resurrected bodies. Yet, we donât know for sure exactly how that might work. Perhaps there are crowns given out before hand? Could God do this if He so chose to too? In that event they would possibly be 12 patriarchs representing the Old Testament world. And 12 Apostles representing the new.
One way to think about this (and as a former Calvinist I am well acquainted with this) is look how often what Jesus said to the apostles the church takes it as statements to us. There are quite of few. Some theological implications do transmit down upon the church. But I have found an incredible lack of discernment over the years of the distinguishing of the uniqueness of Jesus calling the 12. And it turns out that many of the things we thought were theological extensions in general to the church are better divided as something specific to them. Eqaully displaying Godâs character.
So just saying, that the 24 elders could be not the church and the church still not be implied to go into the tribulation. Both tensions could exist. Maybe the church is something God has chosen not to reveal in heaven during the tribulation for His own reasons. But I actually do think we see the church in heaven early on (Rev 12:5). Blessings.
Thanks Ed. Nicely put. And I understand and agree. My mention of the past theologians were not meant as an endorsement though. Merely that it is something to take into consideration. I agree the Daniel thing is occurringâŚand will do so more so too. But we live in a church age where there is a ton of error going around in the church. Deciding upon how wide or narrow are the margins of Danielâs ârevealingâ upon our day is likely the question. If it is increased knowledge, then it would be clearer. So what is âclearerâ about the white horse 1st seal being evil? I donât see anyone able to make that case except for vague referencesâŚwhich is not the same as ârevealingâ Daniels prophecy would bring though, as far as I can tell. For example:
SHOEHORNING IS NOT = TO DANIELâS REVEALING
We have Jeremiah 9:3 suggesting that is Rev 6:2 bow. I would never do scripture like that. That is extremely remote. If we go by first mentionâŚthen the rider on the white horse would be carrying a rainbow. We know thatâs not it. But I would figure a heck of a lot closer than shoe horning in Jeremiah 9:3.
The next epidemic use is the Matt 24 path as seals. You stated Israel 1948. Yeah. That is what I see as wars and rumors of wars and birth pangs. Israel on the scene. Here we go.
MANY WILL COME IN MY NAME
âDo not be deceivedâ is often used as the start of the tribulation today. Itâs always good to look out for stuff. We are in no shortage. Today we can see that major religions like JWâs, Mormonism, Church of God, SDA, etc are all rather recent developments. They are all super huge.
But as this was in the context of the Jews, I would understand the repetition and the fact that Israel was on the heels of being destroyed for 2,000 years to play into that to some extent. I mean Christ said this in relation to answering the disciples questions. Which were asked because Jesus said their temple was a gonner. In reference to temple being gone, âdo not be deceived,â ultimately would likely be a warning against not taking the mark. Yet we often place a bunch of supernatural working false prophets running around as the tribulation starts. Well, theyâre not here now. But plenty have arrived that come in His name, that is for sure.
LESS IS NOT MORE
The other thing is that Matt 24:5, 11, and 24 dismisses the seal path often used in this chapter. Which one of those is the white horse? When we get to verses 29-31, we find in Joel two differing events. 1 with blood red moon (looks like the 6th seal). And 1 with a darkened moon. They are distinctively different. I do not see Matt 29+ as the 6th sealâŚbut the end of the 7 years. It has Christ returning. It just does not fit a seal path. Theologians see it as a nifty thing to shoehorn them in. But at best this is not reasonable exegesis. And Daniel would not have meant less exegesis = clarity.
WHEN THE RULE OF FIRST MENTION DOES NOT WORK
One question no one can answer, or at least so far, is how is Rev 6:2 ominous? It might be if indeed it is evil. But we donât have answers. Where is the use of white as deceptive? What we do have in scripture is Zachariahâs account of a white horse among 4 (kind of mirror like). Those are not the Rev 4 horsemen. But some theologians shoehorn that in too. lol. But it does mirror something to the effect of what a white horse means when God shows it. This would be first mention. 1 white horse among 4. So if we go by that, that white horse is Cyrus. Not a man of God. But used as one. And not ominous.
So out of all of that, how is making the 1st seal evil be what is revealed by a Daniel like revealing? None of the above would qualify for that. Instead, it just seems like a fad and trend. I am here, vulnerable for correction. If it is time for Danielâs revealing to open our eyes on thatâŚmy dear brother Ed, you have the floor. 
Blessings.
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Matthew 16:28 KJV
I see this as partly fulfilled in the Mount of Configuration and John in the book of Revelation.
Could be off but thatâs what comes to my mind.
Shalom
Sorry couldnât help it. But I do buy the idea it could be to replicate Christs return in some way. But maybe not galloping in with the sun rise! 
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hey good points (white horse deception), and that reminds me: Recently my husband started getting to know a guy, and the guy gave my husband a book on Hinduism, saying, âit helped me find myself.â at least he was trying to spread a good word, but itâs not a good wordâŚ
the front cover showed a man and woman (styled so much like the image you showed) on a chariot with a few white horses leading. I had never really looked into Hinduism. I thumbed through it and, while I did see some decent sentiments, it was easy to also see how a person could feel so defeated by this rhetoric. it talked about yoga and other types of practices, saying how these things will⌠I donât remember but basically these things are supposed to lead one to enlightenment-type stuff⌠I can see how someone could easily never feel good enough, always trying to attain enough in order to reach these heights, instead of getting to trust their Creator with their salvation. it was sad. we havenât seen that guy in over a month and donât know if he will contact my husband again. we are praying for him. it took quite a bit of flipping through in order to find the parts that tell me why the ideas were not reliable. it is easy to see how someone who hasnât found Christ, can fall for Hinduism. :[ just wanted to vent about this occurrence thanks.
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Yep, I guess that image will stick with me for a while as 
a cartoon character of course.
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About the same time I realized this âpandemicâ and all the associated mandates were questionable science, I lost any trust I had in 45 and slowly started seeing through him. In the beginning, I could believe he was being mislead by Fauci and crew, and had to go along with the âvaccineâ idea⌠but to still be pushing it and crowing about his âWarp Speedâ when surely he has received some of the VAERS information and expertsâ concerns, has me re-evaluating his loyalties. I for one have jumped off his bandwagon. So now I get to incur the wrath of a whole new group of friends who have made him their sacred cow!
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Interesting photos⌠ties in with the possibility I mentioned of the white horse coming out the emerging Truther/White Hat/New Age movement as eastern religions like hindu and islam are both well represented in that movement it seems like. Not that I am tied to that idea, mind you, just something I began to consider as folks started talking about the white hat docs connection to new age (same as the Truthers like Alex Jones and David Icke, etc. are as well)
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Well, Teren, you have now touched (albeit lightly) on the very reason some folks in my life consider me to have a tin foil hat permanently affixed to my skull. Maybe time to stop skirting it.
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Thanks Ed. I appreciate you brother. I understand what you are saying. And it may in fact end up being the AC. But our assigning it as deception comes for our understandingâŚnot from scriptureâŚas far as I can see it. Even though it is of a ruler. We donât have an evil one on a white horse to draw on. But we do have a good one. In fact two good ones. Any room for it possibly being in âthe power of Christ?â Not
Christ, but White as a forerunner? You know like the one that announces the kings is coming ahead of the king that rides ahead into a town to get them ready?
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Lol. By what reason do you mean Violet?
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Thatâs gonna take some explaining and its late, but Iâll put on my big girl pants and tackle it tomorrow.
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Gets some rest dear lady.
Hey,
Still looks like AC coming on the scene, 1st saving the day without using weapons (no arrows) and behind him war to give him and excuse to change his stripes.
I understand the many early Christians had hope this was a good guy coming forth in their day but I think we may be just hoping also.
I see Yeshua still opening seals in heaven not riding in âaloneâ early with out us⌠yes it may be all spiritual but still plays out the same to me.
Maranatha
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A bow with no arrows.
âThrough his cunning He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule; And he shall exalt himself in his heart. He shall destroy many in their prosperity. He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; But he shall be broken without human means. Daniel 8:25
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Hi Dan. Thanks. Iâm not suggesting it is Christ. I donât see the first seal as Christ at all. I understand what you are saying and seeing. It does make sense. But as far as I understand, the 1st seal as a good force was not just the early church.
W H Simcox 1909 is the earliest I can find that makes it out to be deception. If you or anyone else on the forum can find an earlier account, please let us know.
From what research I have time to do, what I believe may have occurred over the centuries is it went from early Christian hopes as you say Dan. But also because of the pope at some point it looks like. Like perhaps the reason it was thought to be good is that Catholicism (throughout the early ages) might have encouraged that verse to look like the victory of the pope, or Vicar of ChristâŚpossibly. It seems that after the reformation it went to be known as âthe word of God.â Which would make sense that that is what the reformers would do with that.
My personal take is that it is not Christ. But like possibly a messenger ahead of the procession about to embark. When a king would enter a town in antiquity, there would be a procession. The first in would prepare the city for the kingly visit. Like John the Baptist. It was a practice for kings to ride in on a donkey displaying peace. As Christ did. This âprocessionalâ preparer shows up on a horse (although peaceful, has a war stance). Perhaps it is a seal declaring war on humanity.
Correct it seems to imply it when looking in context should have put a ? mark instead to see the feed back on it.
I do find it interesting most times you look up âwhite horsesâ it is good sign but that makes sense if one ones to make one believe they are the good guy come to save the day.
But it seems the old commentaries do not agree either even some like Mathew Henry says he has arrows and many agree it maybe Christ but none say its an angel that I see.
This is the guy I see as riding the White Horse!
Daniel 8:25
And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
Daniel 11:21-25,32,33
And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteriesâŚ
This one is on the fence but I stick to what I see as AC for now. I wonât be here when he rides in God willing.
Shalom
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Yep, Just went back through the commentaries they were seeing through a glass darkly brother 
Yep, they were all over the place on this white horse character.
Not planting myself on this interpretation but holding on to the ground for now.
Shalom
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This is traditionally known by scholars as having been fulfilled by Antiochus. There are some things related to both he and AC. And somethings that just go with Antiochus as a type. It could be this does not apply to AC. Most commentators seem to leave at the feet of Antiochus.
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