Gets some rest dear lady.
Still looks like AC coming on the scene, 1st saving the day without using weapons (no arrows) and behind him war to give him and excuse to change his stripes.
I understand the many early Christians had hope this was a good guy coming forth in their day but I think we may be just hoping also.
I see Yeshua still opening seals in heaven not riding in “alone” early with out us… yes it may be all spiritual but still plays out the same to me.
A bow with no arrows.
“Through his cunning He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule; And he shall exalt himself in his heart. He shall destroy many in their prosperity. He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; But he shall be broken without human means. Daniel 8:25
Hi Dan. Thanks. I’m not suggesting it is Christ. I don’t see the first seal as Christ at all. I understand what you are saying and seeing. It does make sense. But as far as I understand, the 1st seal as a good force was not just the early church.
W H Simcox 1909 is the earliest I can find that makes it out to be deception. If you or anyone else on the forum can find an earlier account, please let us know.
From what research I have time to do, what I believe may have occurred over the centuries is it went from early Christian hopes as you say Dan. But also because of the pope at some point it looks like. Like perhaps the reason it was thought to be good is that Catholicism (throughout the early ages) might have encouraged that verse to look like the victory of the pope, or Vicar of Christ…possibly. It seems that after the reformation it went to be known as “the word of God.” Which would make sense that that is what the reformers would do with that.
My personal take is that it is not Christ. But like possibly a messenger ahead of the procession about to embark. When a king would enter a town in antiquity, there would be a procession. The first in would prepare the city for the kingly visit. Like John the Baptist. It was a practice for kings to ride in on a donkey displaying peace. As Christ did. This “processional” preparer shows up on a horse (although peaceful, has a war stance). Perhaps it is a seal declaring war on humanity.
Correct it seems to imply it when looking in context should have put a ? mark instead to see the feed back on it.
I do find it interesting most times you look up “white horses” it is good sign but that makes sense if one ones to make one believe they are the good guy come to save the day.
But it seems the old commentaries do not agree either even some like Mathew Henry says he has arrows and many agree it maybe Christ but none say its an angel that I see.
This is the guy I see as riding the White Horse!
And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries…
This one is on the fence but I stick to what I see as AC for now. I won’t be here when he rides in God willing.
Yep, Just went back through the commentaries they were seeing through a glass darkly brother
Yep, they were all over the place on this white horse character.
Not planting myself on this interpretation but holding on to the ground for now.
This is traditionally known by scholars as having been fulfilled by Antiochus. There are some things related to both he and AC. And somethings that just go with Antiochus as a type. It could be this does not apply to AC. Most commentators seem to leave at the feet of Antiochus.
Dan, do you see any references to Rev 6:2 as deception or AC prior to 1909?
Ed, I don’t know if you are familiar with Joel Richardson. He believes that Daniel 11 has a lot yet the AC will fulfill. That is not the common stance. He also sees the Goat and Ram in Daniel as Turkey and Iran going at it in the last days. I mention that just to underscore I do keep an open mind. One way, is if there is any validity to historicity and prophecy and if so where.
The spirit is not the only way God teaches. He has ordained other means too…as stated in His word.
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
I am honored you included me, yet embarrassed that I cannot answer. I can’t name a single “scholar.” I have been studying the Bible since 2014, and I was skeptical of it until just like 2 years ago or even less. so I’m pretty new in biblical understanding and I keep my circle small as to who I give credence to, regarding commentaries. I don’t know if there’s a specific reason you included me in the question, as I don’t think I’ve referred to biblical scholars before, but thank you for seeing what I think either way!!
Hi Ed. Having gone through Calvinism…yeah commentators are highly suspect indeed. But you earlier gave an example of a South American town that took initiative to better their drinking water condition. History, cultural insights, the hard work of others theologically can be helpful as part of a due diligence expected of saint. This would also go with your showing honor and having a stake in showing fruit and appreciation, I believe. Not everyone is into reading and studying a lot history or theology. And there are other ways to have due diligence. Amen. But as the saying goes, those who don’t know history are doomed to repeat it. There is a respectable due diligence to understand.
It took me several years to realize I could actually study the bible. I thought it was more about praying and then wherever my finger landed that is what God wanted to say to me. Imagine if we did not know that Christ did not want us to go around cutting our limbs off (there are some goofy cults I imagine…like playing with snakes to not fear their poison). I had no idea of figures of language. And that there are hermeneutical rules too. If we were to just rely on the spirit, I suppose one could argue there is no need to learn how to read. Hyperbole. I didn’t know there was such a use of language for many years.
I don’t go to commentaries to think for me. I would recommend looking at as many different versions upon a verse to understand its understood range of possibility. I may lean toward one. Or I may lean toward none…such as some of my takes on our forum are not found in any commentary. Even though I understand Calvinism as faulty teaching, there are many from the reformed period that have quite a wealth of awesome things to ponder on regarding our Lord. For me personally, I look at commentaries not to teach me what to think. More like, what to teach me not to think, often. I mainly though do it because I don’t just want to be proclaiming my own insights. I want to be helpful and responsibly informed…at least as much as I can. I would see it as a duty unto respecting others in the body of Christ. Not that everyone should read commentaries or study academically. But it is one way God has provided for us in His word authorizing it in Ephesians 4. But not everyone likes commentaries. I think what is more important than that is the quality you have Ed, where you are humble of heart to discuss, consider, and engage. Commentaries can’t do that…only God can. Blessings brother.
Sorry, I just wanted in on this one.
I like knowing what other are thinking now and way back but unless you know the sources history who knows if you can believe anything they say especially if it seems contrary to a simplier understand to scripture…
So truth but I believe it would be wise to know each scholars history before trusting them. But things are being revealed that had a time stamp on them a need to know basis only according to Daniel…
Looking at what many current scholars nowadays gives little trust in what many say… Most have just added to what others taught but never really fully researching it out for themselves.
I believe I heard that from Joel Richardson actually.
I agree with that but not as much as many other things. For one thing I don’t agree with his stance on the rapture. He says get ready to go through the tribulation and tends to devalue other opinions that disagree with him. Some Blessed Hope that is.
His stance also fly’s in the face of the Dead Sea Scroll commentaries and the early Fathers of the Faith commentaries. As they were eye witnesses the apostles and their disciples. Of many I have great respect for.
Yeah i disagree with him a lot…lol. But he means to sincerely look at questionable issues. He is post trib. So right there I don’t agree. But he engages with the scholarly work of the day. He’s kind of the underdog. I respect that. Plus he brings a lot of reason and sound approaches in how to look at things. He has a lot of common sense too. He made a movie (or his people or friends) about Iran being the hotspot of Christian growth in the world. It is a great movie if you have not seen it bro.
Imagine the total global banking collapse and supply chains destroyed. A few weeks of pandemonium. People crying out to their governments for help. Onto the world stage walks the man with the answers to save the world. People will rally round those animated giants soon bearing his image as he explains, in simple terms, in every language, how all can be fixed…He comes in to save the day during a time of global distress (no arrows needed) and he is center stage and made top gun.
Then the FP begins to shower him with praises and asks the world to join him in thanking this amazing man. And then war breaks out.
I’ve always seen that as a condition of some spiritual entity trying to conquer by intimidation and compromise. Winning a battle based on psych job. (Art of War - Sun Tzu)
He is given a crown (has not earned it), implying authorized as satan was with Job to go only so far, but no further.
A bow is a weapon of the air. Mass media is that type of weapon.
No arrows indicates empty effect (no real power), and the ones conquered gave up their stand by reason of their own submission to the fear of it. Believing the lie of the enemy that they are powerless.
Along with your Daniel 8:25 quote, I think of the comment in Revelations about “Who is able to make war with him?”
This one is a fraud and a fake. And I do believe it is the spirit of antichrist that was already at work in the time of the Apostles.
I wonder from things I hear if we don’t see a major power grid failure that ruins all the meat people have saved up in the freezers, long enough to out last most with generators as gas will also be stopped.
I agree that’s what we have seen all along.
Intimidating and deceiving others turning ethos and ethos letting others do his work for him by fear. Yep, That’s settles it Satan is a communist or as least the creator of that religion!
He is nothing without the help of willing accomplices. With them he a a powerful foe for but by Holy Spirit we are more than conquerors.
Unless we have to bug out and leave it behind, that will be the first stuff cooked en mass, preserved, and consumed.
No one can plan perfectly for an unknown, but you can mitigate certain things if you are adaptive.
A lot depends on the crisis at hand.
Good advise but at this late date better get some canned meat for now.
same goes to you Ed!! it’s been a joy!!