…and then Dan, there is of course the line of thought that during most centuries the 1st seal was Christ. And then there is the line of thought in the corner of a room way over here: Maybe its not the AC or Christ.
It is great to search out the word and get a glimpse of how things line up and make sense. But the more we build upon presumption the more standard deviations from the norm a theory “may” hold water. So yeah…I’m the line of thought way over here in the corner of the room 
Hey Brother,
I surely don’t have a handle on all of this but what I do have I still hold on too. Thanks for the response. Makes me dig and scratch my head and pray.
Who better to hold them? Who steps into be priests when Yeshua steps from Priest Duties to King Duties to start the Judgments?
I see them as all the prayers that have been prayed OT and NT filling up the bowls to overflowing for the last day Wrath of the Lamb.
The prayers of the righteous are pleasing to Him. Psalm 141:2 describes this aspect of prayer perfectly: “May my prayer be set before you like incense; may the lifting up of my hands be like the evening sacrifice” Psalm 141:2
I believe it is The Tribulation period, this says “they all” have to be martyred that’s not “some” as a normal trib event. This is The Tribulation not just a tribulation era , I don’t see this as correct?
I am not dogmatic either I have heard this before and it’s very interesting but to much scripture tells me other wise.
And Yes, I understand not everything is chronological but when you go through the seals and you ask yourself what just happen the answer seem clear. They say they have just experienced the start of the wrath of the lamb.
Very interesting but like I said these tribulations have been with us since the fall and I do see them now speeding up and intensifying to warn us what is about to happen.
To read the seal judgements and see them as just standard tribulation or a warmup of things to come means one would have not see the overwhelming convergence of destruction upon all the earth how bad these seal judgments are.
We are in the warm up the next phase after we leave it hot then it goes super hot! And one day melt down.
Shalom
Jesus ascended 40 days after His resurrection, and Pentecost was 10 days after that when the Holy Spirit was sent to the believers.
When He ascended, He sat down at the right hand of the Father in Heaven at the throne.
Not much of a leap really…
John writes the account some 60 years afterward, but the account of the scroll at the throne where the Lamb is able to take the scroll is past tense for him and us.
He is all those things, but I disagree that he is waiting to open the seals as of yet. 
I agree with that actually, in favor of the “Spirit of antichrist” that was already in the world. Takes some time (in human terms and existence) to conquer and to go forth and conquer.
See that @JFelts8031 … We’re deviants now. 
From my perspective the crux of the discussion that I’m finding fascinating distils down to one simple question:
Much of the established eschatology I’ve encountered has it placed at the beginning of the Great Tribulation, and indeed during the first half, with the subsequent Seals being opened in (swift?) succession.
Then there’s this alternative notion of - pre-Trib Seals - for want of a better term, which has the 1st Seal (and perhaps 2,3,4,5) potentially already opened prior to the Great Tribulation, and if I understand correctly, it’s the 6th Seal that seals the deal for the Trib/Wrath.
For now I’m going to make like @DEC and…
Thanks everyone for your contributions so far.
Hopefully this remains a discussion and not an opportunity for some to Authoritatively Dictate.
I’ll be back later myself.
Hmmm, well I think I was pretty thorough in my original comment to Decarlisle…
Also, do you not agree that Christ ascended to the Right hand of the Father 40 days after His resurrection, and sent the Holy Spirit 10 days later at Pentecost as described in the New Testament in Acts etc?
Would you look at that Ed? We here agree
We agree We agree We agree lol
I agree with you Sir My reason is that what we have unseen on the earth unleashed has not been a seal. I think when a seal is released (for those here to see it), it would not be something you’d have to guess at. It would be “noticeable.” And not blending in with all the rest of history. I don’t think this world has tasted of a seal yet.
I tried mapping those out with huge wars and huge famine. We have had those. But to point to the pattern and sequence of the 4 horsemen…we have not seen that order…at least that I can tell. Another beloved forum members perceives the horses as frequency, intensity, and spotty along the way. Like random birth pangs-ish. And that would make sense if that was what God was doing. But I don’t think He is or did. The horses come in order and numbered. Like all the judgement cycles, they are in order, so I’d just go with that.
Remember this day Ed, where we SUPER agree 
Blessings.
A mathematical term from probability math, “Statistics.”
. . . . .
The middle line is “norm.”
The probability of assumption = the more, the more it disperses further form norm predictability it lands from. Although those two deviants are quite cute 
Just to be clear, too many assumptions does not = incorrect prophecy (provided all the assumptions are correct). It would be likely that the norm today would likely be an assumption itself. So the true prophetic outcome would likely be in some measure of standard deviation. And perhaps its the outlier even (for what we think are not assumptions may indeed actually too be).
I believe that from taking this literally at least I see it as we are to witness the 7 year event from the opening of the seals to the 2nd coming.
I look at that as the way the whole thing plays out don’t know all the specifics but I see us as the Body watching the Head as we are working as one The King and His Priests.
Shalom
I wish God had given me a mind for mathematics, but I guess he knew what he was doing. 
I would agree Jason that the grouping of the 4 horses would look to be linked and roped off for a purpose. Perhaps the opening year? One per quarter? Or maybe much faster?
I have seen commentators link horse one and two together like an action and reaction team. It may be the same with a domino effect of all 4 perhaps.
I see the birth pangs timing as WW1 and WW2 paving the way for Israel. That blends with Matt 24 account too possibly. It would make sense that the two biggest wars in history tied to the birth of Israel to at least qualify as potential official “birth pangs.” At least to me.
The timing i would place the 4 horses is the start of the tribulation. I would get there by how I understand “birth pangs.” It seems a bit of a play on words to a degree.
BIRTH PANGS
Although Islam started in the 600s (we do have the Arab Spring dispersing it throughout the world since 2011) , many coming in His name too seem to be birth pangs as well. There was quite a bit of false messiahs in the late 1st and early second century. And our major Christian cults like (Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Unification Church, International churches of Christ, the Nation of Islam, Christian Science, Seventh Day Adventists, and the United Pentecostal Church all started in 1800s or 1900s). Ultimately Christian cults would birth pang into an ultimate AC at some point we might gather.
Israel can be the birth pang as that which goes through Ez 38 & tribulation to birth the 144k (or a more pronounced nation for Christ as a nation).
Pretribulation events occurring to underscore the birth of the tribulation (like earthquakes increasing…we’ve seen bad famines).
I would see though seals and trumpets as birth pangs too. But in a different sense. It would also be according to what the baby ends up being. In the case of seals and trumpets, they give birth to the Great Tribulation period of bowls. Or at least that is how I would look at it.
In the same measure, the entire tribulation could be looked upon on as birth pangs to the millennial kingdom.
So birth pangs can be for: the AC baby, the reborn nation of Israel (unto Christ) baby, the tribulation baby, the great tribulation baby, the full return of Christ birthing, and the millennial kingdom birthing.
SIGN PATTERNS
There are 4 celestial signs in Revelation. Omitting the Sign of the Son of Man, one sign is identified as a judgement sequence: Rev 15:1 “the bowls.” In theory, the other two remaining celestial signs look like perhaps the other two judgement cycles possibly. The red dragon codes in “1/3” (tail sweeping stars) as so do all but one of the trumpet judgements (all in 1/3rd, so looks like a fit). The woman and child look like for seals. A benevolent sign perhaps given during the benevolent age of grace timeframe (as appose to the showing of the other two celestial). If the child is the rapture, then we have 1 celestial sign non-ominous and one seal non-ominous (seal 1-depending on how you look at it…at least it is a candidate for “non-ominous,” possibly, whereas the others don’t come close). Perhaps there is a matching of the 1st seal with rapture timing. If any outliers (judgements prior to the tribulation)…it would only be horse 1…even if that…as far as i could tell. For surely by horse 2, that sounds totally like the tribulation is on to me. And I could not see horse 4 definitely not being in the tribulation. That just sounds horrid nasty. 
Blessings.
Me too. I had to take 2 semesters of statistics. The first semester i was leading the class. The second they were leading me…lol.
Dang,
Not sure if I brought this up but I now wish I hadn’t if I did.
I have no issues myself with different legitimate opinions and I think this conversation was one of those.
I also believe one brother may not have read far enough up the thread to understand the whole conversation and how it got to the point he stepped in. He was welcome to gather with us but not drive us all apart.
Even though I may agree with his take on the subject I do not agree with his method of discussion at all. What was an interesting and informative discussion has been lost and just when I was winning the argument too.
Maranatha
You did nothing offensive Dan. I have found you to be honorable, respectful, and understanding even if you do not agree.
I know I am an odd ball but I believe we see the two witnesses on the way up as we hand the relay baton in the air!!!
Shalom
I have to admit a ring side seat when they start preaching with the power that is given them would be amazing, guess that’s why the 144k come into play.
The earth has not seen nor heard the gospel in purity since Yeshua left the planet! But this time unlike Yeshua who held back until he comes back these guys are coming out swinging with full force.
Setting the stage for the ultimate showdown of all time, the 2nd coming funny think all Yeshua does is show up and they Shut up.
Maranatha
Hi Jack. I did not notice Ed’s larger quoted statement. I was referring to agreeing with his timing. Looks like Ed might have deleted the negative portions. @Saved-by-Grace I have always known you to be respectful in controversial conversations. Jack is not a demon…lol. Maybe take a day off? Relax. Your a valued member of the forum. It does not have to be this way…blessings.
Sorry Jack about my mishap. In no way was I referring to the negative portions of Ed’s post. I know you and James were joking with me about the deviation. Sorry about the misunderstanding. Love you bro. Blessings.
