Amen sis @Michelle
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For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:7
Pretty definitive on the Trinity. Just saying.
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Good try but it doesn’t prove a trinity to me.
I could argue all your scripture points, but it would serve no purpose.
Believe what you like. I know what I believe and why I believe it.
We can agree to disagree.
Blessings.
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Ok so as to appease the forum software I will address three post in one.
So we agree then the Rapture is one even and the Tribulation is the other. As separate events then the Rapture preceds the Tribulation. Let’s revisit Mark 13:32-33 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. This is what is commonly known as clear plain text. There is no symbolism, no metaphor so we take it at face value. Jesus clearly states no man knows when the Rapture will come and by the same token nor when the tribulation will start. All we do know is that the Tribulation is 7 years long.
Now if we are expecting the Tribulation and the Pre-Trib rapture we have to ask ourselves why that is. What gives us reason to even think we are at a time close to the Rapture? You state,
So I have to ask why do you think the Tribulation is near. What evidence are you looking at that would make you think such a thing. I mean after all it is prophecy not fulfilled but future so why now why not in the next century or the one after that? If I follow your logic then I have all the time in the world to do the things I want. There would be no sense of urgency if the signs of given in Luke and Mathew only pertain to events which happen inside the Rapture time frame. So something is now happening which would lead you to believe the Tribulation is near at hand.
Additionally if the signs given are addressing the Jews in Israel how are they seeing them. Orthodox Judaism does not read the NT. They are not listed in the old testament. So it seems as for signs they are not much use as a warning. So let us go back to the example I gave if driving down the freeway to a destination. If all the signs to tell me I am close to my destination or getting close are buried within my destination how do I know I have reached it till I get inside. Last time I looked the Highway department puts signs out along the road to my destination that tell me how close I am. So that discounts the claim that Luke and Mathew are for the Jews only. I would go far to say it is only intended for Christians since it was given the very first 12 Christians in the world. Additionally why did both Peter and Paul spend so much time explaining the doctrine of the end times to the Thessalonians. Is it because both false teachers and Jews were arguing against it? I would say yes that is the case.
So back to the question why are you even studying eschatology if you have no basis to know when the Rapture and Tribulation will happen. According to scripture it is clear no man knoweth the day or hour. That holds true for both the Rapture and start of the Tribulation. If we accept that as fact then there is no reason for so many the world over to be looking up for Jesus at this time like there is now even yourself. You say it best:
Further more you state:
Yet I would say to you, you have it backwards. Signs point to something and are not necessary if it is already where you are.
Yes I do. I see this very kind of confusion often especially in this time of history. Lets use Covid as an example. Ample evidence whether accepted or not points to the fact that Covid is nothing more than germ warfare. It originated we now know starting in the US. In fact in your state as one of many places that were doing gain of function research UNC was along with other universities in Wisconsin, Harvard to just name a few were all doing such research before it was deemed to dangerous and the moved to Wuhan China. Yet during the pandemic there were many who did not buy into the official narrative but also many that did to the point the often times got violent in attacking those that questioned the official narrative. So when people get stuck on an idea that they will go to their grave to protect as truth but is in fact a lie it cause for a lot of confusion. Sadly that is all too often human nature.
If you are confused is it because others disagree with your view or is it because you are not actually willing to weigh the facts? I would venture the latter but hey it is not like you have a corner on that market. We all do that to some degree or other and suffer the consequences of being confused. We pick and choose what facts we are told as being true and ignore the rest at our own peril.
To the above point this is your claim and yours alone. The majority of Christians who are eagerly awaiting the Lord’s gathering of the church do not agree with your POV. That being said there is little likelihood you will find many here on this forum to agree with it. So it begs the question if you see that and there is much evidence that you do in your description of forum mods and admins as Gestapo it begs the question why did you come here. Was it to have open discussion on sermons and prophey updates that Pastor JD does or is there some kind of alternative motive. I will let you tell us that.
I have another example that addresses a reply to you. I live in earthquake country. They happen but rarely to any significance like say California or Japan. But they do happen. When will the happen? I have no idea but still I prepare for the inevitable. I have some food set up, I can do water purification. I have comms to connect with emergency folks once they get set up. I have taken CERT courses to assist first responders to assist others. Why would I do that if I don’t know that significant quakes of magnitude 9 or higher can happen where I live. It makes no sense. What I don’t do is prepare for hurricanes and why is that. Simple they just do not happen where I live. That being said, how do I konw this? The answer is simple historical records of past events show that they have happened in the past and the geological make up of the area where I live is on the edge of a crustal plate all are signs they will happen in the future.
This brings us to the purpose of signs. Why do we have them? Some just provide information which door to use to go in or out, some warn of danger, some tell us the weather is changing. In fact Jesus spoke to that one specifically when addressing the Phrisees on how they can look a the sky and see signs of the weather changing but could not see the signs of His first advent and who he was. Yep they just ignored the obvious and to their peril faced the consequences with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Disporia.
I may have missed it but I have not seen any one labeling you as ignorant. If I did miss it I am sorry.
Actually that is not what he said. He was pointing out that he was being belittled by those with theological degrees and that he did not care about what they thought. So if the forum is as you say not being liked because of those who claim to be more learned would that not pertain to you. It was you who came here to tell the rest they are wrong and don’t know how to read and interpret scripture. I could be wrong in seeing that way and if I am please clarify that to me. But if I am right is this not the very thing Jesus did when dealing with the Pharisees. They were the educated one of his time, they studied scripture regularly discussed it often. And yet for all their education they failed the test to see their Messiah had arrived. But that is understandable to a degree because they were in the midst of a Roman occupation of their territory and were looking of a conquering Messiah who would rid them of the Romans. Unfortunately for them, their narrow mindedness refused to see the bigger picture which Jesus made clear, first and foremost they, like us now are in need of a redeemer because of our sin nature. Jesus went as far as to show us how bad we really are in that even if we looked with lust it was adultry, even if we gave out of our excess it was not done in love and there for a sin. Only though true faith in our hearts can we please the God who created us and loved us so much that He came to earth, lived a sinless life but died for our sins that being like us in human form we can eventually be like Him in glorified form. Everything else is incidental to that fact. The Rapture, the Tribulation, the explanation there of all take second place the Gospel. Yet there are many in this world are more like the Pharisees than the apostles who learned at the feet of Jesus how to live while here in love because God is love and God loves us that we may love Him in return.
I don’t know about you but I am not a part of a cult. I am a part of the church as we all are here. Looking at the definition of the world cult I find: a small religious group that is not part of a larger and more accepted religion and that has beliefs regarded by many people as extreme or dangerous Well I guess that leaves out the many forum members here because regardless of denomination they are a part of a larger more accepted religion called the church. It would seem that members who disagree with the major tenents of clearly defined doctrine would fit the bill more closely as a cult such as say flat earthers, follow the sciencers of late, the Gaia worshipers calling for climate change. Those and people with other fringe ideas are more of what we we would as reasonable people consider as cultist.
We can continue if you wish but it will be as pointless as you see the Doctrine of Imminence. Other wise I am ready to move on.
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Oh my dear Dallas, you have no idea how proud I am of you. Nicely done and you did not let your passion drive your words. I knew you could do it. Love you sister.
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I thought we could count the days in the tribulation according to Daniel and Revelation, how can anyone say we don’t know the day at the second coming?
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Thank you for your kind words. All honour to the Holy Spirit - for the words and for holding my passions in check.
Love you too brother.
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Sorry to interject but @R461810d / Rodney was asked to review/edit this post and he duley…dooley…dul…he dun did so.
In respect the doctrine of imminence, which I adhere to, I always like how Andy Woods frames such debates; it’s not a salvation issue so I’m not going to start a new church about it.
Stretched context perhaps, but:
49 …John answered and said, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us.”
50 But Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us is on our side.”
Luke 9
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We can count those days but backwards from the actual second coming. At this point we don’t know when the Tribulation will start. All we can know is that is close. So the Rapture does not stand alone as to the not knowing the day nor the hour. We don’t know it for either Rapture or start of the Tribulation period.
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That was a very good attempt at a rebuttal. This rather lengthy rebuttal however does not change the underlying fact, that the overwhelming scriptural references used to support the “Doctrine of Imminence” which is based on the premise that we can not know the Day or the Hour, always identifies with the Second Coming (Day of the Lord).
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Thank you all for assisting me in attempting to understand the origins or the fundamental principals of the “Doctrine of Imminence”. Guess I will just have to agree to disagree. I won’t pursue this anymore guys.
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Reading you 5 by 5 kind sir.
BTW if anyone is interested I will be serving up a mess of Tuna sushi tonight compliments of Herr Jason. Sorry brother I am so weak in the flesh.
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I have some exercise bands you can borrow. Get it? Weak in the flesh…working…out…With that I’ll see myself out.
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Sure why not, I need all the help I can get. After all I am from bayou country and we ain’t all that subtle at times.
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“The early church was born out of the lower stratum of society and not the higher stratum. She came up from the common people, and the people who went about everywhere doing miracles were common people.” – A. W. Tozer
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Dear Pastor JD.
You had me at: If GOD created creation in 6 days, how amazing will heaven be, since Christ has been preparing for us, in His Father’s house, for almost 2000 years already.
So very exciting. Made me think about this song - or should I call it a promise:
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Let’s revisit Mark 13:32-33
I did forget to include Mark 13 as being the same as Mathew 24 and Luke 21. These passages in proper context all reference the Second Coming (Day of the Lord) not the Rapture (Day of Christ). The audience being addressed was a Jewish audience and focused on events heralding the physical establishment of the Kingdom yet future.
All of the “not knowing the day or the hour” fall in this context as well. Context is the most important item in discovering the truth of scripture. Without proper context one can be led to follow any wind of doctrine. Context involves identifying the subject, audience, and specific time-frame being addressed.
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Hi Jack, firstly can I say a big thank you for all your recent, valuable input to the forum and the time you’ve devoted.
The matter of “the thief in the night” has been on my mind for several weeks now, to better understand following a conversation with a “sleeping” member of our Church group who won’t entertain the idea of lining up world events with Bible prophesy.
This analogy crops up several times in scripture but I know it was the Holy Spirit that led me to look again at the letters to the Churches in Revelation. In Christ’s message to the Church of Sardis (to a literal Church at the time of John’s writing) but relevant to some Churches/individuals today.
Rev 3:3 “…… But if you do not wake up (watch KJV) I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.”
My interpretation of this analogy is that it is a warning rather than a statement to be ready, waiting and watching.
The antithesis of the above message is if you are awake (and watching) I will not come like a thief and you will know at what time (Maybe not the hour or the day but certainly the season).
My husband and I are starting a Bible study group on Bible prophesy for the small and new local church we have joined. We’re trusting the Holy spiritual to guide us and would covet your prayers for our success in feeding and waking our brethren.
Keep looking up and God bless all! 
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