Revelation 13:5 5The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months .
If that is what he is given from the midpoint, how would that be shortened in light of that verse though James?
I see Rev. 12 as a warning of whatās coming the AC to Israel and that the last 7 years is just aheadā¦ If they were looking for the true Messiah they would see he is warning them of the false one.
While Rev. 12 speaks to Christians also it speaks to the rapture and the start of the 7 years giving Israel a warning and Christians a Sign to Keep Looking Upā¦
We will not be in the tribulation and I see the seals as the wrath of the Lamb (GOD) and that is in the tribulation according to this scripture as I read and understand.
I see the two witnesses on my left going down and me on the right going up in the rapture maybe simultaneously.
THe 1st half is mainly natural disasters to allow AC āthe manā to come in as the FiXer the 2nd half the āAC Cloneā is Satan and he canāt control himself and goes berserk with power and Father makes a fool of him. Even though it appears the asteroid hits close to the announcing himself to be god, and maybe God says well little god fix this!!! Just thinking out loud is all.
Revelation 5:1
Then I saw a scroll in the right hand of the One seated on the throne. It had writing on both sides and was sealed with seven sealsā¦
So this scripture confirms to me what I am believing.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 āŗ
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Note: this word salvation is not the same as eternal salvation from what many scholars tell us ,but more like saved from.
Shalom
1 Like
Thanks Dan. So it sounds like you see Rev 12 as starting off at the beginning of the tribulation too, or so it looks. To me it is one of the strongest arguments for an early rapture, Rev 12:5. This is before Satan is thrown to earth. To me it looks like pretrib rapture. But I suppose it could be also argued āsomewhere before, at, or along the seal cycle path.ā The woman and child, to me, appear to be the seal sign (the red dragon for trumpets and the 7 angels Rev 15:1 the bowlsā¦all celestial).
1 Like
Some have speculated that the days will become less hours, by speeding up of earthās rotation. Instead of 24, they become less, and yet a day is still a day.
There is also the idea that there will be less light in the days (shortened daylight). There is lots of talk of darkened sun, darkened moon, and darkened stars,
Whatever it means, the context is that it becomes such for the sake of not annihilating flesh altogether.
4 Likes
I know I doā¦
Rev 12 covers the whole 7 years of tribulation as well as some time before it with the birth pains. It is a Parenthetical chapter. It is specific to the perspective of the main characters, the Woman (Israel), the man-child (Church of which Christ Jesus is the Head), her other offspring (Namely Israel as a populace), the Red Dragon (satan) and his angels.
Revelation 12 is the center piece (not by chapter number, but by context) of a Chiastic writing style used by John and many in the Old Testament.
2 Likes
This to me shows Satan battling in heaven to stop the meeting in the air of the head and body. I canāt see another reason He would not be on earth instead of letting a man stand in for him.
This gives a good reason why I donāt see the seals as Satanās wrath becuase heās not here.
The Women Israel the child represents this time the body of Christ and the head Yeshua comes to connect with his body.
Amen
1 Like
I came across something, that said 3.30am was the time satanists favoured, that it was the exact opposite time of Jesus death, and everything they do is the reverse of all things Christ,ā¦ Iām not sure if it the opposite time or not, but it worried me, why was I awakened at that time, but since Ive wondered if I was seeing something satanic, Iāve still got the pics, the time proves it was going down not upā¦ it was brighter than the sun and far far bigger. Iām willing to share them if anyone is interested to see themā¦very eerie looking, . I wonder if I was supposed to see it.
2 Likes
That IS interesting. I just figured that since 3 is significant to Godā¦3 is complete or perfection (if I am briefly explaining that right), 3ā¦God is thrice holy, God is triuneā¦ I figured the time on the clock might mean an imitation in order to get you to think that this was all from God, but what you found in your search may explain it, instead. I honestly donāt know.
I would be interested in seeing the photos. People ARE seeing things, and deception is on the increase.
3 AMā¦
New Agers and Satanists will say itās a spiritual awakening, science and health people will tell you itās your liver doing itās thing at that time of morning.
There is no direct reference from the bible about waking up at 3 am, but many profound visions and dreams recorded in the bible happened around that time.
Perhaps it is because we are at our quietest and not distracted by the busy things of the world like we are in the day time. We are more sensitive to the spiritual realm (both Good and Bad)
Whatever happens, test it against the word of God. Nothing heard or seen that does not align with the word, is from God, and should not make you fearful.
This is the best that can be said about it I feel.
3 Likes
Itās what Iām trying to do jack, but I cant work out the significance of a huuuge bright light, coming down to earthā¦ every morning for about a weekā¦it was bigger than the sun, but was closer, and sooo, brightā¦Iāve never seen anything as brightā¦it happened in February?, I was watching seismic activity on some web cams and found volcanoes too because of the bible connection but I fell asleep and left it onā¦ then I woke at 3.30 and that was happeningā¦ it was not normalā¦
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
Notice he is on the earth after the child has left. Yes from fighting with Michael in heave. But how did he get to earth and why is he mad about it?
7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they did not prevail, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole [d]world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, āNow the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers and sisters has been thrown down, the one who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even [e]when faced with death. 12 For this reason, rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you with great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.ā
So yeah it looks like he was thrown to the earth after throwing a fit because of the rapture. Thrown out of heaven. Then mad and on the earth and goes after the women.
2 Likes
Good point.
Now thatās interestingā¦ Iāll have to dig into that comparison.
1 Like
Donāt think the scriptures agree.
The 1st seal is the wrath wrath of the Lamb and Yeshua sends down and that wrath is sending down Satan to the dwellers upon the earth and we believers are not dwellers upon the earth our home is in heaven.
Satan was thrown down by Yeshua as punishment to the world system.
Shalom
1 Like
There is a line of thought that the Seals are not even part of the tribulation, and that they began opening at Christās Ascension 2000 years ago.
The things John sees are Spiritual, and he is caught up in the spirit. None of this is physical, and neither are the riders, nor is the AC in persona here.
Seal 1 is the āspirit of antichristā which was already working in the world at the time of the apostles mentioned by Paul, John, and others in the epistles.
There is a problem with your comment I quoted here also, in that by the very words of Seal 6 in (Rev 6:12-17) specifically verses 16 and 17, the Wrath of the Lamb and of the One seated on the throne begin.
If Seal 1 was the āWrath of the Lambā, then how is it that it starts after Seal 6?
Respectfullyā¦
Revelation 6:16-17
And they said to the mountains and the rocks,
āFall on us and hide us from the face
of the One seated on the throne,
and from the wrath of the Lamb.
For the great day of Their wrath has come,
and who is able to withstand it?ā
3 Likes
I guess I ask why is it āWrath of the Lambā there at the finishing of the seals saying what it is if its not? At least thatās how it seems literally.
The world has suffered Satanās wrath from the day of the fall hasnāt it? So that has always been with us.
The 7 Seals catastrophic and are like nothing we have seen since Yeshuaās ascension it seems to me.
Below: After this is telling us all these things come after this including the church era and Yeshua is in heaven in the timing of this Spiritual or not correct?
I understand some say it happened (seals) as he John watched that looks a little more than confusing to me and again the seals are not like anything I believe the world has experienced in a convergence, a short window in time has it?
The Throne in Heaven
4 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, āCome up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.ā
Shalom
1 Like
I agree immanency had better be apart of our daily understanding and application. And what a good point that itās "Godās clock.
He instructed the Jews how to keep it so if they donāt follow those instructions then will He keep His time His way? Or compromise and keep theirs? Heās perfectly able to cause them to calibrate these feasts accurately if He sees fit so truthfully I lean on His word that the day is unknown even as the season is known as well as the signs.
I 'm pretty confident that the ultimate fulfillment and the one in view in Mathew 24 is the return of The Lord Jesus as the subject matter was set with the famous three questions that initiate the fabled Olivet discourse.
There are many typological possibilities in the song of Solomon and else where that talk about the bride and groom in the early summer romance ect. Including Amosās prophecy of the summer fruits. This could very well be a seasonal hint as many good scholars note. And the harvest cycles of ancient Israel is a major typological study well worth the study time. So I am very watchful this time of year as the barley harvest represents us the type of first fruits that Paul says we are.
Now here we all areā¦Come Lord Jesus.!.
1 Like
We tend to lock events into our idea of points on a line (timeline), as happened, is happening, or will happen. The truth is Godās time is not really a time as we know it as His present is always present. What we see is made past, present, or future tense by where we are on that timeline we are locked into.
Now before I say the following, I will say that I grew up with āSeals are the start of the Tribulationā when I first started exploring, studying, and researching Eschatology. I held that view taught to me for a long time.
I will also say I am not dogmatic about this new view, but itās hard to leave it and go backwards at this point also. We simply did not know then what we know now after decades of further prophecy fulfillmentā¦
Iām going to loosely deal with Revelation Chapter 5, 6, 7, and 8 here in the following and keeping in mind the āSon of Manā title that is often used by Jesus when referring to things involving those He loves. It is His āKinsman Redeemerā title (Friend and Family). Jesus as Son of Man (Kinsman Redeemer title) redeems us through this process.
In regards to the Scroll Seals, most people get hung up on some inconsistencies in the KJV translation that throw a wrench in understanding who the ā24 eldersā are (or more importantly, are NOT because of the KJV mistranslation), and the difference between the first time John cries at no one being able to take the scroll, and the time one of the elders tells him not to cry because the Lamb that was slain has taken possession of it.
I donāt see these Seals as judgments. They are reclamation and witness events in the process of retrieving ownership and heir rights.
Adam was given dominion over the earth and creation. The scroll is the Title Deed lost by Adam to his fall, making Satan the master until repossessed legally by the death and sacrifice of the Second Adam, Jesus. In order for an heirship to proceed the previous had to die.
The Seals are the trustworthy witnesses of that Title deed and by breaking them they become actions towards legal repossession. They are also Spiritual, and not physical, so for example:
Seal one, the White Horse rider, is not the Physical AC (which if he were, would force this to be at the start of the Tribulation like many believe), but the Spirit of Antichrist, which was already at work in the times of the Apostles as mentioned by Paul and John and others in their epistles.
These seals represent cause and effect of the wrath of men, whereas the Trumpets represent the Wrath of the Lamb, and Vials/Bowls represent the wrath of the Father (God). Something you will see in Seal 6 here in a bit.
Also remember that John is in the Spirit after Chapter 4:1, not on earth or in the physical. He was told to write the things that were, things that are, and things that will be. These also overlap a bit between transitions.
- [The Things that Were] At the time (~95AD), the past was the record and witness of Jesus as Messiah in His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension. Christ is at the right hand of the Father and is able to take the scroll at this point (60 years before this writing).
- [The Things that Are] Then, and now more importantly is where we are at, towards the end of Chapter 3 with the Churches of Philadelphia and Laodicea. In the beginning of this Church age represented by the Seven Churches over roughly 2000 years so far, was the Church of Ephesus. Each of the Seven Churches represent a period of struggle and victory as the nature of the battle between light and dark has occurred, and yet also every believer and church has struggled with all of these aspects for that 2000 years. Iāll insert a link here to (Hosea 6:2-3) that indicates just that time frame using the (2 Peter 3:8-9) reference of a day being as a thousand years to God.
Hosea 6:2-3
After two days He will revive us; on the third day He will raise us up, that we may live in His presence. So let us knowā let us press on to know the LORD. As surely as the sun rises, He will appear; He will come to us like the rain, like the spring showers that water the earth.
2 Peter 3_3-9
Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.
- [The Things that Will Be] Obviously after the start of Chapter 4:1 we are in the āThings that will beā for Johnās point of view of time, as well as our own still even now prior to Tribulation.
Here we must define what is included in the Tribulation. What is represented by John being called up in the spirit in Chapter 4. Identify some mistranslations and some incorrect assumptions.
First the identity of who the 24 Elders are NOTā¦ In chapter 5 verses 9-10 of Revelation the KJV would tell you they are us, and this was a biased choice in translation because of the crowns and white robes and their tossing of their crowns at His feet. The Greek properly implies a third person implication here and not a first person as it is rendered in KJV.
Youāll also notice in verse 8 (even in KJV) that they hold golden bowls of the prayers of the saints. The question is then if the 24 Elders are the saints, why are they holding their own prayers? And what about the four living creatures? They arenāt human either.
Rev 5:9-10 (KJV)
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 5:9-10 (NASB)
And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood [men] from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. āYou have made them [to be] a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.ā
Rev 5:9-10 (BSB)
And they sang a new song:
āWorthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals,
because You were slain,
and by Your blood You purchased for God
those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
You have made them to be a kingdom
and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign upon the earth.ā
This is super important here as later when we see the elders again in Chapter 7:9-17, with the great multitude, they are again differentiated from the saints, and these are not Trib saints either, as is often misinterpreted in verse 14. The ācome out of great tribulationā does not refer to the Second half of the Tribulation, but simply great personal trial in their lives. It is not a noun or label for a time period but rather an adjective descriptor of struggle of their lives and their victory in Christ.
This great multitude is the resurrected and raptured Church. And chapter 7 is an intersession between Seal 6 and Seal 7, which are representations of the same event, one from the earthly view (as below) and the heavenly view at the throne (so above).
- If the seals are not part of the Tribulation, it does not make the rapture and resurrection mid-trib, it simply redefines what is part of the Tribulation, that being Trumpet Judgments and Vial/Bowl Judgments. Which is very much indicated in the 6th Seal.
Revelation 6:16-17
And they said to the mountains and the rocks,
āFall on us and hide us
from the face of the One seated on the throne,
and from the wrath of the Lamb.
For the great day of Their wrath has come,
and who is able to withstand it?ā
There is a purposeful delineation here, but yet Their Wrath, (Trumpets and Vials/Bowls). It goes further with this in the fact that the people on earth at this time know these judgments are coming, as in, the Tribulation has not started yet at Seal 6, but is about to.
When you tie this in with the chapter 7 Intersession of the 144K being sealed and the Great Multitude arrival at the throne, and then in Chapter 8 the Seven angles are given the 7 trumpets and another angel hurls the Golden Censor full of fire from the altar and the prayers of ALL the saints to the earth, you realize that the seals were not judgments from God, but cause and effect (like dominoes) of men on the earth and their mismanagement and warfare.
All instigated by satan the god of this world at the start with the spirit of antichrist. (White) Deception leads to War, (Red) War leads to Famine/Economic/Ecological Collapse, (Black) Famine/Economic/Ecological Collapse leads to (Green/Pale) Death and Disease.
- Getting back to Chapter 5, sure, it is about the right, and who is able, to take the scroll, but it is the very same Lamb in Chapter 6:1 who begins to open it just after taking it (2000 years ago mind you).
Also, he opened one of the seals (not all at once like some claim).
The timing between each seal opening may be up for discussion, but really, have we not seen these four riders the whole time since then, simply getting worse as we near the end, and on a global scale? We hear about them in Zechariah as well with a different purpose long ago when they patrolled the earth and found it at rest.
We know for sure at this point that Seal 6 and Seal 7 are not opened yet, and we could be at the Seal 5 point in the timeline.
- Seal 5 has often been misidentified as Tribulation saints because of the martyrdom, and immediately one thinks of the Tribulation saints as the martyrs because of the beheading.
But, martyrdom is not exclusive to just beheading. Anyone who dies for their faith in whatever way is a martyr. We have had martyrs since Jesus ascended. Burned, drowned, massacred by wild animals, etc.
The other point is what these martyrs say and are told, and also their condition.
-
They are under the altar. They are spiritual not physical (Resurrected or Glorified bodies)
-
āHow long oh lord?ā If they were Glorified or resurrected why would they be in such limbo since their redemption would be complete?
-
They are told to rest a little while longer until the full number of all their brethren were martyred also. This isnāt Tribulation Period, this is Church age until final times of the Gentiles is completed.
3 Likes
Fascinating stuffā¦
Apologies @FoxMan, I was drafting this prior to your latest post so forgive the omissions and oversights to new points you may have madeā¦
Itās an interesting notion that the Seals have been incrementally opening since Christās ascension, however the other line is that the chronological position of the Seven Seals is heavily denoted as commencing with and occurring during the Great Tribulation.
Rev 1:19
19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.
Rev 4
4 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, āCome up here, and I will show you what must take place after this. ā
A literal and logical interpretation renders the āafter thisā in reference to after the events and context of the previous chapters 2 & 3 both of which deal exclusively with the āchurchesā.
It is worth noting then what Christ says to John at the close of chapter 3:
Rev 3
22 āHe who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.ā
From hereafter the word āchurchā or āchurchesā is never again mentioned in Revelation until 22:12, which is the epilogue/close.
The implication here is that the events of chapter 5 & 6 dealing with the Scroll/Seals, comes after the chapters 2 & 3 dealing with the churches or church age.
Given that the church/body of Christ currently remains on earth (Marantha tho!), and has done since Acts 10, there is a potential chronological inconsistency here between the āthings that areā (churches) and the āthings that will take place after thisā (seals).
Even accepting that Godās time is not our time, there does seem to be an explicit order dictated by the Spirit to these chapters.
That said, it is true that since Christās ascension the world has been subjected to the sways of the wicked one (1 John 5:19) that have indeed resulted in:
- conflict (2nd Seal)
- famine (3rd Seal)
- death (4th Seal)
- martyrdom (5th Seal)
- cosmic disturbances (6th Seal)
However just as the Covid19 situation is a precursor of the events of Revelation 13, I believe the birth-pangs of the past 2000 years have been foreshadows of the events of the Seven Seals - but - as a destructive result of manās sin nature as exploited by the devil, rather than the divinely ordained destructive results of Godās Holy judgement on the earth.
Could the major difference between the Seals of Revelation 6 and events of their type already witnessed on earth be deciphered by the fundamental context for the opening of the Seals as offered in Revelation 5?
Rev 5
3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it. 4 So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. 5 But one of the elders said to me, āDo not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.ā
It is the Lion, Christ Himself who personally looses the Seals, from the First to the Seventh, and thus unleashes a cascade of devastations that befalls the whole earth.
This being the case, the hypothesis that some of these Seals have been loosed prior to the Great Tribulation raises many questions, perhaps the most fundamental of which is:
If the Lion, Christ has been opening the Seals since His ascension, yet they are apart from the Great Tribulation and are not judgements, what is the purpose of the Seals (or at least the first four) in respect to both the church and Israelā¦[edit] and unbelievers [/edit]?
As with yourself Brother, Iām not dogmatic and this is fairly new territory for me, so be gentle (as doves).
In Christ
5 Likes
I might answer @jasonacts177 with a simple comment about āWhen did Christ ascend to the throne to be able to take the scroll and then seemingly almost immediate breaking the first oneā?
When He got thereā¦ The Apostles record that the "spirit of antichrist was already at work in the world. We know He breaks them one at a time by Rev 6:1, which I might add he broke just after taking the scroll.
About these seals and their effect over a long standing period of timeā¦ The cause and effect of manās mismanagement, due to evil influence, is accumulative until it reaches a global scale.
Have we not heard Christ say that he comes at a time when things are revved up (Rev 3:11).
Again we get the birth pains motif here where everything gets worse and worse and shorter in period and all converging at the end.
Chapters 2 and 3 are about the Church and I argue the Church age, and yes it was present tense for John when he wrote Revelation, but they also cover a period of 2000 years which was also future tense also.
Itās no reach for me to see the first 5 seals containing history from our point of view 2000 years later and focused only on the rest of the world, while being present tense for us as well.
2 Likes