Requesting insight on a gospel based dilemma

ReadRomansChapter9 · July 24, 2023, 8:21pm

Hi again

You know, I have never read anything that Calvin wrote/said and I wouldn’t bother spending years studying anything that a man said. So, I am unfamiliar with his philosophy.

I think we need to always go to the Bible first and to be constantly examining the scriptures for our answers. The verses I gave, are a good starting point to understanding who God is. As he says ‘there is none righteous, no not one’.

I actually did read that book from Dave Hunt about 20 years ago. I had been listening to Dave Hunt at the time, and he said so many great things that I agreed with. I can’t remember everything that was in the book, but I do remember thinking as I was reading it that it was absent of Bible verses - he seemed to only have quoted a few and I felt he was judging God in this book and he was very sarcastic. So, he used alot of his own words, and almost no Bible verses. I thought at the time that there was something not quite right with him and it was literally the first time I had ever thought that about Dave Hunt. It really surprised me at the time actually.

I listened to the entire first talk from Phil Stringer that you recommended. For the 40 minutes that he spoke in the entire first video, he didn’t even quote one Bible verse and I think this is a worry. How can you have an argument about the Bible not quoting any verses at all? It was almost exactly what Dave Hunt had done in his book. I have listened to only 20 minutes of the second talk and again - there are no Bible verses. He only uses the words ‘to whomsoever will’ that Jesus used, but has still not quoted verses. And Yes, Jesus does save everyone who comes to the genuine Jesus of the Bible and is willing to trade what they used to think of him - to what he says about himself. But it is God who heals their blindness.

Phil Stringer started talking about how Calvinists believe that God has made them perfect and that they never sin. If that was true then this would be a cult religion, but I don’t remember ever hearing that Calvinists believe they are without sin. So, although I never studied Calvinists or what they believe at all - what he is saying doesn’t sound right to me. He also is saying how every Calvinist he has ever met has been arrogant. But there are no Bible quotes still and he seems to be judging by outward appearance. How can we have a talk about what the Bible says with no Bible quotes?

So, again, I think that every man/woman stands alone when they meet God. We need to study what he has written to be able to expose counterfeits. We are told in Ephesians 6 that the Word of God is the Sword of the Spirit. His Word is our defence. We are in a battle and the stakes are the highest, so the best thing anyone could ever do is to get to know what God says and if we have any questions about what he is saying keep cross-referencing verses until it becomes very clear. We need to let scripture interpret scripture.

So, no, I am not a Calvinist. I believe all of the verses that I sent you though, and we can’t throw any of them out the window just because we don’t like them.

With your husband, the Bible is very clear. It tells everyone to ‘come out from amongst them’ when we are in a false church. Since he has not done this yet, he is counted as being one of them.

Matthew 25 is a terrifying story of how there are two groups of people that think they are Christians and God tells one group to depart from him because ‘I never knew you’ (or what he’s really saying is ‘you never knew me’). So, the more we find out about God and Jesus from his own definitions and his own words, the better position we will be in when we meet him face to face.

You did mention one thing that I don’t agree with ‘once saved, always saved’. Have a look at these verses and see what you think. These seem to be warnings from God.

All the best - Marianne

[Philipeans 2:12-13 KJV] 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

[Ezekiel 18:26-29 KJV] 26 When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked [man] turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

[Revelation 3:11-12 KJV] 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

[2Peter 3:17-18 KJV] 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.

[Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[Ezekiel 33:3-6 KJV] 3 If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people; 4 Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. 5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul. 6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take [any] person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman’s hand.

TBFL · July 25, 2023, 12:33am

Ephesians 1:13 (written by our apostle Paul, for the church age) is clear that once you are saved, you are sealed…nothing can undo that seal

Rev 3:11-12…the crown(s) you can lose are rewards at the Judgment SEat of Christ, not your salvation…judgment seat rewards are based on works as seen in 1 Cor chapter 3 and 2 Cor Chapter 5

Eternal security is a promise only for the church age…not promised to other dispensations which could lose their “salvation”…

If you could lose your salvation, then that is a work based gospel which is therefore no longer grace and therefore no longer the gospel of the current church age

ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS saved

TCC · July 25, 2023, 2:41am

Hi Marianne. I thought to jump in here because i’m bored and have nothing to do…lol. Just kidding. Actually i appreicate your heart and your passion and love for Christ and the JDF family. I was a Calvinist for 25 years and it took me several years to sense what that meant and to see differences. I was a Calvinist for 25 years and never read Calvin because the churches i was involved with just believed that way. In America Calvinism is in many churches and most of the big names today…not all. But it is something that over many decades has influenced how believers are thinkng, often today (radio, tv, churches, etc).

I have friends that are Calvinsits. And some of the most lovely hearts in Christ are Calvinists. In fact, I agree with some of what Calvin teaches (just not when he’s a Calvinist). One friend of mine sometimes sends me videos to challange my view. He is a Calvinist and i am not. Yet we love the same Christ. I would agree with Stephanie though that there are concerns with Calvinism. And just knowing Steph, she is coming from a geniune place and has shown to know the word very well over the year i have known her.

FUNNY STORY
So this is a funny story. My friend sent me a video of his pastor claiming that Jeremiah 13 (you know the part about the leapard not able to change his spots?) meant that we as mankind are born unable to come to God. Unable to want to know Him. Unable to seek Him. Now this pastor is probably the most famous pastor in America who is reformed (hands down). So that verse in Jeremiah if you look it up and its context might look like that too for you…i don’t know. But this super famous pastor that is a Calvinist used Jeremiah 13 to tell us about total depravity. Ok, so the funny part in the story is how I was able to share with my friend that that is not so. Not true. Nor is that the context of Jeremiah 13. Now you can check it out and see. To me this shows isreal sinned alot after knowing God and God was tellling them that they have sinned so much after knowing Him that they could not change that. Like a leapard unable to change his spots. Do you know what was really helpful to confirm my position for my friend? Calvin.

Yep. If you read John Calvin’s interpretation of Jeremiah 13, he will tell you that he believes in total depravity BUT that is not what Jeremiah 13 is teaching. John Calvin’s influence in Christianity is what we would understand as historically where total depravity came from. Before him it came from Augustine. You may seem to come to total depravity on your own from scrjpture. But historically that is where those ideas came from that have become such a huge part of the the Christian community today. Calvin would not argue that total depravity was a concept in the early church though prior to Augustine because he knows he won’t find it in the first 300 years of Christianity. Could they be wrong? Yeah i reckon. But…

…i tell that story because that pastor knows his bible better than any of us. And he believes what you do about total depravity. So when you look at Jeremiah 13, is that what you see? Hey you seem really like a lovely lady and excited in His word, amen. The best resource i have found is a channel i can post for you. He goes over a lot of verses and scritpure. So if you are interested in where Steph or myself might be coming from, well, it might take some time to get a contrastive sense about it. So i hope you check out the link. In the meantime how would you answer the following?:

If the Pharisees in Jesus day would never consider coming to Christ because they were not elect, why did Christ speak in Parables? Why hide what they could never see? And how is it that if they were born that way from birth…they “closed” their eyes? Or they “became” dull at hearing? How does that work?

Matt 13:13-15
13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And [d]in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,

‘[e]You shall keep on listening, [f]but shall not understand;
And [g]you shall keep on looking, [h]but shall not perceive;
–SPECIAL EMPHASIS HERE 15 For the heart of this people has BECOME dull,
With their ears they scarcely hear,
–SPECIAL EMPHASIS HERE And they have closed their eyes,
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
Understand with their heart, and return,
And I would heal them.’

. . . . .

Here is the video channel i mentioned above. He gets into a lot of detials specific to verses. This is a set of 5 videos. They are long but this is the best channel standing i’ve seen on differences from Calvinism. Hope this helps. Blessings.

Calvinistic Proof-Texts for Total Depravity - YouTube

ReadRomansChapter9 · July 25, 2023, 3:33am

It’s clear that Paul was afraid of the real possibility of losing his own salvation. He warned us to make sure we get it right. The Ephesians verse is from God’s perspective, God knows when someone has believed and yes, once God has sealed someone, he has declared them a believer.

From our perspective, we don’t know exactly who is saved - but from God’s perspective he knows exactly who will be saved. When Paul said to ‘work out your salvation with fear and trembling’ in Philippeans 2:12- this has nothing to do with works - it’s warnings about getting our understanding of doctrine right.

[1Timothy 4:16 KJV] 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Also, God has written a letter with some warnings to the 7 churches in Revelation. Why is he writing a letter to warn them if the warning is irrelevant? He says in [Rev 2:5 KJV] 5 "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.”

What does it mean to ‘remove your lamp stand’? - you lose your salvation. God wants us to be like the Bereans (see Acts 17:11) ‘who searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.’ They would challenge the temple leaders to make sure they were understanding the scriptures correctly. and I also think of the verse [2Timothy2:15 KJV] 15 “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

[2Peter1:10 KJV] 10 “Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:”

I think the saying ‘once saved always saved’ can be dangerous as it makes people feel complacent and comfortable to not study the Bible and they might think that everything is ok, not realising they have replaced the Jesus of the Bible with a counterfeit figment of their imagination. It potentially can make people lazy. The only way to make sure we are believing in the Jesus of the Bible is to continue to study who he says he is. The true definition to ‘once saved always saved’ is [John 6:39 KJV] 39 “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” Jesus knows who has believed him and he won’t even lose one of them. We need to persevere to the end though.

TBFL · July 25, 2023, 3:52am

Paul was never concerned about losing his salvation as he explains in Romans 8:38-39…Paul called himself the chief of sinners.

If our salvation depended on us enduring to the end or not doing something, then Jesus didn’t need to die for us. We could just work our way to heaven. That is a different gospel. This is what the Catholics teach. Paul warns against anyone preaching a different gospel in states in Galatians 1:9

What a Christian can lose is his inheritance and rewards at the Judgment seat but never his salvation

Peter’s epistles are not exclusively written to the church. Some church doctrine is found in them, but one must rightly divide and glean doctrines which apply to the church age and which ones do not. Bible doctrine that does not resonate with Paul’s gospel of grace obviously is not applicable to the current church age.

anon28331375 · July 25, 2023, 12:35pm

OK, I am late in this and it all may be changed but looking at it from a male point of view.

Sounds like He thought going on Easter would give Him the disadvantage is all.

I would except the offer and I would not point out the inconsistences unless he brings them up. Not that that is bad but I am sure your husband will be on defense for a while.

Then in Love and measured I would reveal as the Lord leads. I would be praying for Holy spirit to do the real work and I personally would walk in it behind holy spirit.

I would expect him to ask you questions as I believe as you say he is pretty intelligent and obviously has a heart for God and you.

Either way this is how I would have been more open to working together with my wife in such a situation.

Shalom

ReadRomansChapter9 · July 25, 2023, 9:27pm

Hi Teren

Thanks for your long message. I appreciate you taking the time to write to me.

Before I respond to your comments, it’s important to consider that this is how the Bible tells us every person starts out…

[Rom 3:10-20 KJV] 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

Wow!! Are we that bad? God says we are. And apparently, it starts early!

[Psalm 51:5 KJV] 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
[Psalm 58:3 KJV] 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

So, we all start out in sin and in rebellion. This is man’s natural state.

I’ll answer your question first about the verse about the Pharisees where you quoted Matthew13:13-15 and then talk about the other things you brought up.

Yes I see where you have pointed out ‘they have closed their eyes’ and ‘they are dull of hearing’ (which the above verses in Romans indicate is man’s natural state anyway). But if you start reading the two verses before what you quoted Matthew 13:10-12 - Jesus explains why they were blinded. He says:

[Matthew 13:10-12 KJV] 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

So Jesus is saying that he had not given them the truth. And it sounds like as time goes on they will keep on becoming even more blind. I also think of this verse…

[Matthew 11:21 KJV] 21 “Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.”

So, why didn’t God send his prophets or Jesus to preach to Tyre and Sidon when Jesus knew that if they had gone there ‘they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes?’ It seems for some reason God did not intend to heal them of their blindness.

About the rest of what you have brought up - I am sure that studying the Bible itself is powerful and we can find all of our answers there. If one verse seems to conflict with another verse we just need to cross reference verses until things become very clear.

You weren’t kidding that Leighton Flowers videos were long. He has done 10 hours worth! I have listened to 40 minutes of ‘Examining Every use of Predestination in the New Testament’ to get an idea of what he is trying to say.

The first thing I noticed was that he is recommending that people read a book in the very beginning of the video, and he held up a book by someone he calls a scholar by the name of Adam Harwood called Christian Theology that is at least double or triple the size of the Bible. And I can’t help asking myself, would Jesus hold up this book and tell everyone that they should be reading it? I don’t think so, I think Jesus would have held up the Bible and told everyone to read this book instead.

Although he said the talk was on every occurrence of the word predestinate in the New Testament, he never gives the definition of this word - so here it is from the Strong’s concordance (G4309):

to predetermine, decide beforehand
in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
to foreordain, appoint beforehand

At the 21.29 minute mark of this video he is starting to read Ephesians 1:1-7 . Although he reads the whole verse, he glosses over ‘by the will of God’ in verse 1. Then he again gets confused in verses 4 and 5 that say ‘even as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world’.
And he says this doesn’t mean that God chose believers from the foundation of the world?!

He says that this only means that all believers are chosen to be holy and blameless - not that he has decided beforehand or foreordained or appointed beforehand that someone would believe him. I get what he is saying but he is confusing this.

Around the 29 minute mark he is saying that we are sealed by faith after we have heard the truth, not beforehand and this is true, but the faith is a gift from God…

[Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

What do you think of Romans chapter 9? It talks about how God created one person as a ‘vessel of honour fit for his glory’ and another as a ‘vessel of dishonour fit for destruction’. He talks about how he ‘hardened Pharaohs heart’ (and by the way, when you go back to the book of Exodus I counted how many times God hardened his heart and it was I think 18 or 20 times). And God even addresses man who is arguing with him when the man asks God ‘but why doth he find fault and who has resisted his will’? Have a good look at Romans chapter 9. It really explains who God is and who we are very clearly - whether we like what he says or not.

So, I think it’s best to stick to quotes from the Bible itself if we want to understand something rather than listen to 10 hours of someone (or read a book triple the size of the Bible) giving their philosophies and anecdotes of why they think that verses that are very clear - are not clear. If God wanted us to be reading other books to explain himself, wouldn’t he have mentioned it? But instead he says:

[2Timothy 3:16 KJV] 16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[2Peter 1:19-21 KJV] 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.

So, it seems God thinks that the Bible itself is superior to everything else. And that we should be looking to the Bible for all of our answers (cross referencing verses).

Again Teren, I appreciate you challenging me. Let’s face it, this is one thing we don’t want to get wrong, do we?

It’s a subject people absolutely hate.

[John 6:65-66 KJV] 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

I don’t think its a co-incidence that these disciples walked away from him in verse 6:66. Man wants to believe that he is ‘good’ enough to choose God, but God puts man in his place and tells the man that even the faith to choose God - is a gift from God.

[Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Lastly, here’s my own thoughts. Since ‘all have fallen short’ and we are all ‘dead’ until the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to us, this means that all of salvation is conditioned on Christ, including the faith that a man has to choose him. I think God has created man this way because it stops everyone’s mouth. No one will get to heaven and tap him on the shoulder saying ‘after all, I chose you, so there was something really good that was in me’. The Bible says that God will not share his glory with anyone.

Is it fair? We are told that everyone has fallen and that we are born into sin. We are all on our way to hell to begin with. But in his mercy, God has chosen to wake up/save some. We are warned in Romans 9 not to judge God, and that we have no right to do this. I do believe though, if a man starts reading the Bible and asks God to heal his blindness, that God will heal his blindness. But we first have to admit that we are spiritually sick and in need of the Great Physician to heal us. And yes, getting the man to ask God for this is a gift of faith that God would have given to the man.

I really love this verse. [Mark 9:24 KJV] 24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Here’s a strange verse that I had never noticed until very recently. In this context it is speaking of denying the flesh (touch not, taste not etc) but still, it’s an interesting choice of words as it seems to indicate an elevation of man:

[Collossionsl 2:23 KJV] 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

I looked up the greek definition of ‘will worship’ and here is what it said in the Strong’s concordance…

voluntary, arbitrary worship
1. worship which one prescribes and devises for himself, contrary to the contents and nature of faith which ought to be directed to Christ
2. said of the misdirected zeal and the practice of ascetics

I just remembered, in this video that I listened to in the 6-8 minute mark Leighton Flowers is talking about how Calvinists talk about the crucifixion claiming that God designed this evil and he seems to be denying this. God is 100% sovereign over everything 100% of the time.

Here’s a couple of very surprising verses from the Bible to consider in this regard.

[Isaiah 45:7 KJV] 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

[Amos 3:6 KJV] 6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done [it]?

[Revelation 2:15 KJV] 15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

So God hates something?

There’s even a story about God sending a ‘lying spirit’ to someone in 1 Kings 22:22.

I think God has created both evil and peace (light and dark) to show the huge contrast between his holiness and goodness and the evil. This gives him glory. And although he has created evil, it’s made very clear that he is not evil and that his love is displayed by telling us the truth.

I will end this here as it’s getting too long! I expect to get a bit of ‘hate mail’ from this, but please keep in mind, I did not write these verses, I am just pointing them out. But then, I need to be careful that I don’t sound like I am apologising for God with what I just said. None of us can judge the Most High and even the verses that we might not like, we need to just believe him and accept that he is telling us the truth - the way things really are rather than the way we wish they could be.

ReadRomansChapter9 · July 25, 2023, 9:59pm

That chapter you quoted from in Romans is a great chapter!!

We have to remember all of the warnings from God in the Bible to continue in his word, and to be steadfast. The ‘enduring to the end’ means to stay away from false doctrine and false churches/ways. If we are in a ‘false church’ - once we realise it he says…

[2Corinthians 6:17 KJV] 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,

The opposite to this is - if we stay in there, he won’t accept us. We are told to ‘test all things’ and to ‘judge righteous judgement’ in the Bible. But, there’s tons of verses in the Bible that indicate that God will keep us through these perilous times also. He is the ‘author and finisher of our faith’. So, God will keep us through this ‘if we continue in his word’ (ie heed his warnings). But he wants us to heed his warnings about not getting involved with false religion and false doctrines keeping in mind that the Jews in the Old Testament were constantly falling off the rails getting tangled up with the heathen ways. These fallen Jews didn’t listen to his constant warnings. If we listen to his warnings, he will help us.

And yes, have another look at where the apostle Paul gives us verses like ‘work out your salvation with fear and trembling’ - he is very serious about being careful not to go astray. He is saying - don’t get off of the ‘straight and narrow path’ - don’t go into catholic churches, don’t get involved in witchcraft etc etc.

[Proverbs4:5 KJV] 5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget [it] not; neither decline from the words of my mouth.

He is telling us to find our wisdom and our understand from the ‘Ancient of Days’ in the Bible.

Here’s the whole chapter from Romans 8. It is very comforting for anyone who is a true believer.

[Rom 8:26-39 KJV] 26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [It is] God that justifieth.

34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

TBFL · July 25, 2023, 10:21pm

Amen. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom.

A born again child of God will be disciplines by the Lord when he goes astray. Talking about the Judgment Seat of Christ in 2 Cor 5:10, Paul is telling people about the terror of the Lord…some Christians are going to have a bumpy Judgment Seat experience. But at the same time in 1 Cor 3:15, Paul says you may lose everything (e…g your eternal rewards/crowns) but you yourself will be still be saved. That’s because we are saved only by grace, and that is only a promise only in the church age.

King Saul lost his salvation. King David almost lost it. That was a different dispensation.

Personally, the “fear of the Lord” motivates me to do what I can for a good judgment seat of Christ experience. The Judgment seat is only for believers and is a judgment of their works for Jesus. Paul talked about running the race so that no one takes away your prize or your crown or your eternal rewards. At the end of the day, I am trusting Jesus who is the author and finisher of my faith. I have not an ouch of trust in me as a person. Without the blood of Jesus covering me, God would peg me a wicked sinner deserving Hell.

TCC · July 26, 2023, 8:59am

Thanks Marianne for your thoughtful reply. Well we are going to differ dear sister. Coming out of Calvinism took years. I can share a few breif things in reply to your post but its something you have an interest in or it ends up not being…such as for any of us, amen.

The reason why Christ is not given insight to Israeli leaders is because He has been doing that for centuries. In Daniel He told them when He was coming. Jesus only started speaking in parables after the Pharisees sinned against the Holy Spirit. At that point, they affirmed they did not want to know. So i would see parables and not sharing insight to them because they have had it for centuries and reject it.

I would see Eph 2:8-9 saying salvation through grace is the gift of God. Even John Calvin who would hold the view that God has to wake us up from the dead to understand the gospel has noted that “faith” there is not the gift God is talking about. Though he shares your generic view.

As for Romans 9…i have studied it for many hours over many seasons. Romans is a thick and heavy Jewish book containing at minimum 44 Old Testament verses. If we read 10 and 11 we see how centric to Israel it is. God was transitioning from Old Covenant to Israel to New Covenant with gentiles. That is a massive masive change. The vessels fitting for destruction i would understand to be Israel who did not believe. And the destrucction is the sacking of Rome destroying their temple 15 years after that letter was written. Keeping the context of how massive a shift that was for Israel (and ending ceremonial animal sacrifices in 70 AD historically speaks to the intensity of why Paul would explain what he did in Romans, in my estimation.

Thanks for taking the time to check out the channel. I’ve never read Harwoods commentary. But i would say this, any exegete worth their salt knows that God’s general revelation has provided us to study in orignal languages, context, nuance, grammar, custom, culture and history. None of that is the bible…but a provision by which men that can edify the church use every day. In fact i’m a proponent of presenting mutliple views on verses to help give a sense of a range of meaning. Because there are groups that have become cults using just the bible too. In any even, i hope that makes some sense.

In closing i’d say Romans does something similar that Ephesians dooes. In Romans 8:29. 1 Cor 8:3 puts it this way, “those that love God are known by Him.” As we know Him we grown in Romans 8:29. I would see that as the same as Eph 1:4. Blessings.

anon28331375 · July 26, 2023, 1:40pm

I defiantly agree
No co-incidence especially in scripture.

Thank you
Maranatha

ReadRomansChapter9 · July 26, 2023, 6:24pm

Hi Teren,

Thanks again for your response. I don’t agree with what you are saying though. I will try to keep this brief cause I know that probably neither of us has all day to respond.

Interesting about God/Jesus speaking in parables. Yes, he did speak in parables in the Old Testament - and here is the proof. By the way, when I was listening to the Bible being read a few years back, walking my dogs down to the beach in Sydney Australia, I was listening to this passage from Ezekiel while walking - and I remember thinking - I wish there was some sort of proof that what I was listening to was a parable, but I don’t know how I could find that out - and then Ezekiel said the last sentence in that passage which confirmed my thoughts. The passage reads:

[Ezekiel 20:46-49 KJV] 46 “Son of man, set thy face toward the south, and drop [thy word] toward the south, and prophesy against the forest of the south field; 47 And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein. 48 And all flesh shall see that I the LORD have kindled it: it shall not be quenched. 49 Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables?”

You said “The vessels fitting for destruction i would understand to be Israel who did not believe.” No, I don’t agree that God is speaking only about Israel when he speaks about making one person a vessel of honour fit for his glory and another a vessel of dishonour fit for distruction. He is speaking of all individual people; this is why he references people in this passage. By the way here’s a definition of vessel from the Strongs concordance.

a man of quality, a chosen instrument
in a bad sense, an assistant in accomplishing an evil deed

It’s also interesting in Roman’s chapter 9 how he says…
[Rom 9:11, 13 KJV] 11" (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) " and… 13 “As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” And he goes on saying he will have mercy upon whom he will have mercy…

Wow, those are hard verses to accept!

And what about how he hardened Pharoah’s heart about 20 times in the Book of Exodus?! We need to ask ourselves, why did he do this and what does it mean?

I think Romans chapter 9 is a major clue as to how God perceives man and deals with man and how he has organised his plan of redemption. Whenever I read through Romans 9 I think of the verse Hebrews 12:2 " Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;" and [Psalm 90:9 KJV] 9 “For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale [that is told].” So he is ‘the author and finisher of our faith’ and ‘he is the potter and we are the clay’ ie - he is the creator and we are the created. We are a living parable.

Jesus never got involved in the politics of his day - he just steadfastly preached the gospel. This makes me think of this verse:
[2Timothy2:4 KJV] 4 “No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of [this] life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.”

As far as whether the Bible can be understood on it’s own, I think it’s safer to stick to the Bible. With the Bible, we don’t have to ‘test’ the words of Jesus or the prophets or the apostles, but as soon as you go outside of the Bible you have to really thoroughly test everyone and everything. Also, consider that the apostles were mostly uneducated men, ie fishermen and tent makers. If reading the Bible was a test of our intelligence, then it becomes works. We are told to stick to the simplicity of the gospel. Actually I really like this verse - it puts all of us in our place.

[1Corinthians 1:27 KJV] 27 “But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;”

It’s amazing how God is often choosing very humble, low-stature people and giving them positions of great authority - like King David who was a shepherd boy.

As far as people who get involved in cults, they follow the cult leaders who have added books to the Bible (like the Book of Mormon, etc) - and they follow these leaders rather than depending on the Word of God. We have one leader that we need to look to - Jesus Christ.

[Psalm 138:2 KJV] says ….2 “I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.”

So, if we need to call upon the name of the Lord to be saved, the best thing we can do is get to know who he is and what he says in the one and only book he has written. In his book, he defines himself.

I wouldn’t bother studying Calvin or other philosophies about the Bible, I’d study the Bible itself at this late point in time. Even books about the history and customs can be red herrings - stealing our time away from reading the Bible itself - so any book that is triple the size of the Bible I would avoid. And people are going off on all kinds of tangents today reading the Book of Enoch etc.

And lastly - these verses I have quoted are simply saying that all of salvation is conditioned on Christ and it is God who gives the man the faith to believe. It’s as simple as that. And if it is God that gives the man the faith to begin with - this gives God 100% of the glory. Is that important to him? I think it is!

Isaiah 42:8 “I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another,”

I will end this now Teren. I wish we were agreeing.

ReadRomansChapter9 · July 26, 2023, 6:42pm

You have just quoted one of my favourite verses “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” (Psalm 111:10 - and many other places!). I remember the first time I ever came across this verse was in the beginning of my ‘journey’ with the Lord.

I had met a new age friend of mine for lunch and he knew I had been reading the Bible. and I remember he asked me “Marianne, tell me, how has reading the Bible changed you? Do you feel that you have alot more love for people now?” and I had to answer him honestly and I said “no, not really but the one big change I’d have to say is that I never used to be afraid of God, and now I am, gee - that sounds really bad, doesn’t it?” It worried me a little at the time - thinking maybe I had something wrong.

And the very next week I came across veerse about the fear of the Lord being the beginning of wisdom which made me feel excited because I realised I was right on track.

You know, I question this idea about the crown as a reward at the end; there is a verse showing that all cast their crowns on the ground before God. He is our prize! I’d have to really study those verses to be convinced about the ‘rewards’. It seems from what I have read that all believers are equal when they get to heaven. Many verses explaining that every man has only those things that God has given him anyway (can’t think of one off the top of my head at the moment).

I just thought of this one verse [Roman 8:1 KJV] 1 “[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” and I also remember the verse where when Jesus meets a believer he says “well done thou good and faithful servant” and goes on to say 'when I was hungry you fed me" etc.

That is a topic I have not studied too much yet about the crowns or rewards.

TBFL · July 26, 2023, 8:32pm

I am going to post a link for Bible study tonight at 7 pm Eastern time. There is also Bible study Sunday night along with Prophecy updates every Mon and Fri and Sun morning Church service. The Bible studies are particulary good at rightly dividing and explaining the different gospels with each dispensation. Crowns are also talked about often. If you can’t listen live, all the shows are archived to listen later at no charge.

NTEB RADIO BIBLE STUDY: People Shocked To Find Out That The ‘Mean And Fiery God’ Of The Old Testament Is The Same ‘Loving God’ In The New Testament • Now The End Begins

TCC · July 27, 2023, 5:28am

Hi Marianne. I believe its ok not to agree. I have several friends that believe as you do. We don’t really talk about our diifferences in that much. Although it comes up here and there from time to time. Just to highlight some nuances where we differ in the consideration of perhaps why those differences.

. . . . .

EZEKIEL
The judgement of Jesus speaking in parables was prophesiied by Isaiah. It was a judgement. A judgement on people being born not able to see and hear? It would seem it was a judgement of addressing Israel’s stubbornnes. As well as Ezekiels. These were parables to scold Israel for why they were captured by Babylon for 70 years. These parables were alsoo a judgement. Ezekiel was a living street theater parable prophet. (3) Book of Ezekiel Summary: A Complete Animated Overview (Part 1) - YouTube

Lets not forget Hosea was a parable too…and again, why? The similarity is Ezekiel parables given where God told Ezekiel even so, they will not listen. When Jesus came it went from, “They will not listen,” to “I Won’t let them hear.” From a biblical standpoint it appears that parbles come after long disobedience. As in Jeremiah 13. God demonstrates judgement on stubborn unrepentence.

Romans 1
18 people who SURPRESS {not born with unable too see it} the truth [m]in unrighteousness,

19 because that which is known about God is EVIDENT [n]within them; for God made it evident to them

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse. – how is that scripture true if they cannot percieve from birth?

21 they BECAME futile in their reasonings (not born futile)

22 they BECAME fools (not born fools)

23 Therefore God gave them up – what is God given them up to if they are blind and futile anyway?

26 For this reason God gave them over – for what reason? because they were born? Because of Adam? Is that what the word is clearly saying here?

. . . . .

ESAU & JACOB
Where is that Romans quote from? Its from Malachi. Two nations. Here is what happened to “Jacob I loved.” They were scorned by Malachi. Israel would become a nation that rejects its own Messiah. That is what happen to “Jacob I loved” – the country. The mention in Romans 9 pertains to God’s sovereign choice to cary the mantle of speaking for God and be the lineage of Messiah (whom they inadvertently rejected). The reason for the tribulation? Jacob I loved. Jacobs trouble (Jer 30:7)

. . . . .

ELECTION
Election in Romans 9 refers to lineage, priveledge, service. If you llike i can send you in PM list of every mention in the bible of chosen. You can say yeah but the defination of the word predestine means this or that. Actually Flowers in one of his other viideos covered that. It does not have to be ffrom eternity past nor does it have to be a decree. I would suggest seeing how the word of God (the biible) uses election (different word) and see it in every instance of context. Rather than letting general revelation such as Strongs tell you that Prestination means this or that so that you don’t need to see what the bible informs itself to you about in all its places it says election.

[1Corinthians 1:27 KJV] 27 “But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;”

Please use that verse to not go with wisdom of scholarship in what words mean (not the bible) and look up all forms of election and see the bible itself show you its own context.

. . . . .

PHAROAH
Why did God harden Pharaoh’s heart? - YouTube
This video is from GotQuestions. They are very well respected from all denominations and lean in believing as you have shared much more heavily than not. In that, they do share some nuggets of verses where Pharaoah did harden his own heart. But that admittedly gets muddy. Where i like to look at this is beyond hardening (although it is clear this event with God doing that to Pharoah occured within proximity of when Pharoah demonstrated a very wicked, cruel heart in forcing the Israelites to go look and hunt for straw all day while still requiring them to produce the same amount of bricks).

So instead i think a better view is what verse was quoted in Romans 9. From where? Exodus 9:16:

“But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

So lets look at this in context: NASB and Let’s check out if this means that the reason that Pharaoh was created in eternity past was for God hardening his heart and God get the glory. Lets see if that is what Exodus is telling us.

“For had I now put out My hand and struck you and your people with plague, you would then have been eliminated from the earth. 16 But indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to [f]remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name throughout the earth. 17 Still you exalt yourself against My people [g]by not letting them go.”

Above we have God telling Pharoah that God would have wiped them all out. But instead decided to keep some alive to testify of His glory. This is what “remain” or “raised up” means. Raised up from not being killed. Not raised up from birth. I know you did not say any of that. But this is an argument often used.

. . . . .

We may never agree. But having in interest in Him is not about us agreeing, is it? Thanks for your open heart to consider some things “maybe.” lol. If not, its still felllowship in faith in Him. Blessings.

ReadRomansChapter9 · July 28, 2023, 2:52am

Hi again Terren

All of Romans chapter 1 is speaking about the natural state of man. This is the way that literally every man would go unless God healed their blindness (by giving them faith and the opportunity to know God and believe him). Everyone is born in sin - and we are born lost and under the judgment of inherited sin. Even when the gospel is preached to people that will never believe it, it is a witness and a testimony.

With God speaking about Esau and Jacob in Romans 9 - he is speaking about real people, not countries. Yes, both went on with a lineage to different countries in history, but Romans 9 is speaking about two individuals from the womb.

The 1 Corinthians 1:27 verse is not saying that God is always going to use uneducated people (Paul was very educated), but he is saying he can and does use ‘the foolish things of the world to confound the wise’. Often knowledge can ‘puffeth up’ and God hates this arrogance and it is common for him to use people of low stature to confront people of high stature.

With Pharaoh in Exodus, it couldn’t be clearer that God hardened Pharaohs heart. If you go back and count the times, like I said I think it was 18 or 20 times. It was God that hardened Pharaohs heart, not Pharaoh.

The verses in Romans are very clear. God hardened his heart for his own purpose. God’s plan was to have Pharaoh continuously resist listening to Moses - and this was why God kept hardening his heart. Pharaoh had no choice to resist God’s will. And God says he knows people will not like this and argue with it, but that his plan is to let the ‘vessels of wrath’ exist alongside the ‘vessels of mercy’ showing his power with waking up his vessels of mercy and giving them the truth.

[Rom 9:18-23 KJV] 18 “Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Psalm 110:3 “Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,”
Not in the day of man’s power, but in the day of God’s power. This was why Jesus prayed ‘thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven’. Nothing escapes God, and nothing occurs outside of his will. He is totally sovereign.

You seem to have edited your response from when you first wrote it yesterday. I remember when I looked at your response earlier today, at first you recommending not only a study from You Tube, but had also spoken about Leighton Flowers who did the 10 hour videos again and the book he recommended reading triple the size of the Bible.

I think it’s a problem Teren - studying so much of what all these other people are saying. No where in the Bible do any of the prophets, or apostles, or Jesus recommend going and reading other books. Jesus would often say “It is written.” Ie - in the scriptures. If they were not recommending this or doing this, why should we be?

Consider this. After God had called Paul on the road to Damascus (blinding him for 3 days and then it was God who healed his blindness) Paul went to no man at all for 3 whole years!! And even then, he saw Peter for 15 days and James, and then it looks like he didn’t meet the rest of the apostles until 14 years later.

[Galations 1:15-19 KJV] 15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called [me] by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother.

And [Galations 2:1 KJV] 1 “Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with [me] also.”

This is a big clue Paul is giving us here I think - to go and study the scriptures on our own, until we are able to obtain the understanding that we need from the word of God, guided by his Holy Spirit - and then we can go and discuss these verses with others and present the gospel to others.

I don’t know what else I can say. You seem like a real nice guy and I think I would really like you if I ever met you in person. But, I do feel worried about your approach to finding answers from the Bible. The best advice I could give is to put in time reading the Bible on its own merit to anyone. I don’t know it all, and I find almost every day that I am making new surprising discoveries from my Bible studies that I do with my husband. It’s alot like digging for gold each day. I highly recommend it!

anon28331375 · July 28, 2023, 6:54pm

Thank you for sharing I enjoyed you conversation.

I seem the panning for gold fits me a little better than digging Lol.

Shalom

TCC · July 28, 2023, 8:50pm

Hi Marianne, thanks for your kind words. If Romans was delivered as the 10 commandments I might agree. Where we agree is that it is a clear disclosure of the sin of man. Man in sinful. That we agree upon. The difference is whether or not that is a condition we cannot respond to God from. In chapter 2 He says we are without excuse. So He is also making that point. God has made the first move beyond general revelation. He gave us the new testament and at the time Christ Himself and gospel. Which is not only Holy Writ but and “the power of God,” but also something in their day (as scripture is being written) even more sufficient for them to respond to than general revelation.

Yes He is. I would see it representatively though. We use scripture to interpret scripture. The argument being made is the lineage the promise came through. We can look at Romans 9 and say, “Oh yeah that is about salvation.” But the theme in Romans 9 is lineage to demonstrate Christ as the One who all that is about. God has the right to take the covenant from Israel and give it to te gentiles is the context of that historical moment. And the passage is taken from Malichi which uses it as “national.” For Jacob in Malichi are the priests distainfully sniffing at the alter. And Jacob said, “How have you loved us.” What was His answer? I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and given his inheritance to the jackals of the wilderness. In the old testament (as seen in Ecclesiastes) the concept was promise of land, children, and an inheritance of an earthly kindgom. This is what they would understand. To go to sheol was to go to the grave. Dead. And on earth, what is happening is that contract is being given over to the gentiles. Jacob in Malichi was not giving honor to the Father…just as Israel as a nation did not (Jacob is Israel). And since we can know historically God took the covenant away from Israel and gave it to the gentiles…it is at least that much the context historically as well as most helpful to the Jewish mind of that 1st century context.

Yes and He did that instead of kill Pharoah which He said in Exodus He would have otherwise done. The contrast was: Kill Pharoah or allow him to live to show His glory. Pharoah already demonstrated a hard heart for which God would kill him for. Further in this Romans 9 context, Israel is Pharoah now. As in the first Passover, God hardened Pharoahs heart. Is this not what He also historically has done to the nation of Israel? As Christ is THE PASSOVOR. In chapters 10 and 11 Israel is clearly mirrored with Pharoah in the very context of scripture as well as history. Israel as a nation won’t come to Christ until the tribulation. And we have the luxury of seeing that in general revelation even today. This is the context of Romans 9-11 (they go together). Thy are not two different books but only three different chapters that happen to follow each other for context. I’m just reading the word in context dear sister.

I didn’t know Leighton was slinging a book. I just meant that his videos a pretty good to see some other perspective on verses in Christianity that have largely been influenced in churches since the reformation.

But i would mainly refer to Eph 4:11. The word tells us that pastors and “teachers” who might do so online or in book might be under the banner as gifts of God per His own word.

I think a lot could be said of general revelation. We learn grammar and reading and writting. Previously the bible was used for this amen. But if no one in the world never wrote or read books, is that the civilization you would want to live in? How would they conduct goverment, law, the arts? There is a place i believe for books. But even so the bible itself shows us that teachers are given to us as a gift from God…implying that we learn from them too? There are people who hold the view of bible only. If we don’t learn from history or church growth throughout the ages we would still be under the dark ages Catholic rule with the bible chained to the lecturn. It was the printing press and the reformation (men who argued in letters and books for your right to have your own bible to read from). As sinful creatures, our limited perspective from what we think a text says could be wrong yet we might think it’s just me and the word. But I believe God in His general revelation has provided conditions to grow and learn in.

Neither you nor me are Paul. God was providing His word through transition in writting it to us through His apostles. Of course i would encourage being in the word with His Spirit. But His Spirit and our time in His word does not necessarily equal we have the right view of scripture. In Romans 1 God demonstrates that He holds us accountable to general revelation too. If we have not need for history or how to discuss things with others from their own learning because all we could do would be to repeat verses i believe rules out God’s purpose in holding us accountable to Romans 1 general revelation.

Dear sister you focus on a book from Leighton. Please dismiss that. I’ve never read it. But you will in your own view not look at all the references of election or chosen because some man named Strong told you what predesitnation means, but then tell me just bible? If you can see where that is inconsistent, it would help in providing the words we are speaking more toward conversational edification beyond our already stated views and postions. Not that this hasn’t been edifying. It has. And enjoyable actualy…makes me think. But i am just saying that in light of that, we know we have differnces and have both been made in His image. We have our differences, and there are focuses we each have to our thoughts and points we are making. But there are also thoughts and points where even in the place of disagreement, we might see the other soul’s concern, sense, or leaning. In any case i do strive to do that, inperfectly. I just know in discussions like this, that sort of thing takes a little extre pinch of this and dash of that.

I do try and look up things you share, well things i would like to learn a bit more of…or maybe have forgotten what my view was or why my view was. What might be helpful for you to know about me is that i disagree with every single pastor I have ever known. There is no one i support fully. I am an equal opportunity antogonist…lol. i just wanted to provide Legihton because he is the most thorough, I don’t share the ecumenical theology of the Southern Baptists Convention he shares. Nor do i share the exculsivity of Fundamentalists. So i don’t side with any denomination, Calavary Chapel, Reformed, Southern Baptist, Fundamentalists, independent baptists. There are things from each i believe in. But i pretty much would see every single last church on earth under the umbrella of our Laodicean era.

I believe Laodicea was saved. But i believe that church in Rev 3 depicts our era. There are a lot of loving good teaching churches…but i don’t think any are free from the reach of our era. i say this to share from my heart that even though i will listen and even have interest at varying levels with some teachers…the word trumps any and every pastor…and any and every denomination. And the ways in which i see the word differ are large differences not small so much. For example, I’ve been known on this forum to have some pretty wide differences in places from Pastor JD. Its not personal. Its just eqaul opportunity for me. But i love him in many ways. In general, I’m very passionate to love on the body of Christ…believing we are Laodicea. This may seem very contrary for you. I would understand if so. I don’t share this to sound rouge or vigilante or something…I’ve been through a lot…and I have been wrong in trusting men and churches in the past. I believe the church today is kind of too interested in its self and its sense of convictions. But even so…i want to be open to them…because there by the grace of God go I. So i study hard and have some radical views of my own. This forum could attest. But i love the body of Christ…even though it is in many ways a body i extremely trust not at all in some ways. But in Him I trust. With you. Blessings.

ReadRomansChapter9 · July 29, 2023, 4:04am

Hi Teren

This is making my ‘blonde head’ hurt - lol!

I am not an intellectual. I think that God even wrote the Bible for simple-minded people like me where what he says is clear and concise. I don’t think we need to read other books to tell us what God really meant to say. We can discover his truth by studying his truth.

I always think it’s sad when people go into these huge Christian bookstores and buy all kinds of books, but neglect reading the Bible itself. This was a mistake I made myself many years ago and I remember the thought echoing thru my head one day when I left the store with a big bag of books, ‘how many times have you read my entire book?’ and my answer at that time was ‘not even once’. And I ended up going back to the store and returning the books and buying the Bible instead.

Yes, I had already done a study on the words chosen and election previously.

To me, the verses I quoted couldn’t be clearer and nothing could be safer than sticking with the words of God himself in his written word rather than going outside of his Bible. As I said, we don’t have to test the words of Jesus or his prophets in the Bible, but everything else we do need to test outside of the Bible continually - and the way we test things is by his written Word. We need to just read the Bible - it’s perfect as it is written.

[2Corinthians 11:3 KJV] 3 “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.”

ReadRomansChapter9 · July 29, 2023, 4:11am

Maranatha