Yep, starting to look like the days of Noah.
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Have you thought thatâŚ
Chapter 7 of Revelation is not in chronological order?
The 144,000 are the first Jewish converts to be saved at the beginning of Tribulation. They are called the âfirst fruitsâ.
They are sealed and protected so when the time of Jacobs trouble (3.5 year mark) begins they can witness to the Jews.
Mazing developments
Iâm not usually easily offended.
You have done so.
I am just sharing thoughts that I have read in commentaries on Revelation 7.
To bring out more discussion.
Good day to you and Iâll not interject in yâalls discussion any longer.
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Unexpected? You tagged me in it 
However, I accept your apology 
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Revelation 20:4 is a pretty great late starting point 
Plus in Rev 15 we see those who did not take the mark. That is at the opening of the bowls. Can you demonstrated from scripture dear brother that the mark was issued prior to the 5th trumpet (much less by the 6th seal)?
The two witnesses die and rise between the 6th and 7th trumpet (mid trib). It mentions in Rev 11 that the beast that comes out the pit (the only one we have been told about is the 5th trumpet) to kill the two witnesses. If the two witnesses die at the mid trib and that is around the time AC issues the mark, you are telling me that the saints that died in chapter 15 died before the beast comes out of the pit, and the mark is issued? How is it that they overcame the beast and his number? And what about Rev 20:4? Who are they? And how did they overcome the beast and his image (alive at the time of the abomination of desolation)?
Thatâs a nice thought Ed. But you are asking for verses indicating Jewish preaching. I think what I provided you was a bit more than your lovely (and I mean that in an endearing way brother, truly) opinion. I showed you in verses matching concepts and images. Here you are issuing me a commentary brother.
Please tell me your words are more considerable than these to follow?
âAnd I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.â
That is from Rev 20:4 and those had to be resurrected separately because they are leftover saints from the second half of the tribulation.
Are you saying that the AC demands the mark by the 6th seal? Because those in Rev 20:4 and these in Rev 15 would be exposed to that.
ââŚand those who were victorious [a]over the beast and his image and the number of his name.â
. . . . .
I mean I guess you could say well that language about the beast and number of his name is figurative language. They were not really around at the midpoint. You could conjecture that. But the word of God speaks more specific than that.
When it talks about in Rev 16:8. ââŚbut they refused to repent and glorify him.â & vs. 9 â⌠but they refused to repent of what they had doneâŚâ I understand you would want to trust those verses. But we need to be trusting the other verses too. And if we put them together we see that most did not and it grieved God to express it so. This is Godâs creation. He does not desire the death of the wicked. It would make sense He would express it this way. So many or most would not repent. But we see accounts of similar timelines whey they were saved. God could have said, âBut none repented.â Or âBut no life repented.â Or âBut not one repented.â Any of those or more restricting language. Then you would have a case. But âthey refusedâ is a general term. Not a specific one. At least when God is plainly telling us elsewhere that many obviously did.
Ed, brother, if I ask (and you would want me to do the same) you are asking for verses. And I have shown you many before as well as some here too. You are asking for verses and affirm you stand on the word and no commentary. Yet, just saying objectively here brother, you reply with 0 verses and your systematic theologyâŚof which you say it is not good to take that sort of thing from others. So in a wayâŚI am honoring your code of ethics more than you are demonstrating at least here at this point dear brotherâŚnothing meant by thatâŚjust helping you brother to see and plead with you that you at least notice the differences here. We both have to ask âAre we thinking what the spirit is showing us something we favor more perhaps than what is really there?â Everyone has to ask that. So please do address these verses. And the ones before. Address my honestly given time of carefully put together verses and reasonable responses as you would like to have given to you and that you have actually asked for (as deserving of discourse my brother). Not just how we might see it differently with no supporting verses in tandem to track.
I invested real time to answer. Please be prayerful and consider we are talking about the word of God here. Not how well either of us understand it. If you need more time, that is findâŚwe are in no rush here. Plus the people reading are helped to know how to process better if they can understand how we approach it. Even if either one of us if offâŚour methods of approach might help others in another wayâŚas well as teach us to some things about how we might at times do it better perhaps. I have had to change directions several timesâŚand likely will in the future as wellâŚlolâŚi am sooooo sure. yikes 
Blessings.
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Donât continue to feel bad, itâs over. I donât hold grudges 
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Just want to make sure you are understanding, Pastor JD and all of us (majority for sure) are saying this is a foreshadowing of the mark. It is highly likely this shot will someday become the mark as they continue to do more and more evil with the âboostersâ and future roll-outs. We all know we are not in the Tribulation period; everything is being foreshadowed now in such a significant way. The writing is on the wall. The deception is huge now with taking this shot and deception will only grow.
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I hear you brother, last night I came back and deleted a long post that should have been half as much and way more simplified. I believe as things get ramped up outside here inside we seem to be feeling the pressure.
I have found myself keeping myself absorbed in the forum with the need to know whatâs next instead of just trusting in the Lord.
I was not just being a Watchmen as I was trying to fulfill my need to know.
We are all in this together lest we forget the Holy Spirit is what binds us together.
I have been slowly dropping many of the âotherâ web interaction I do to focus more here and clear my mind. I also believe I need more time over in the discussions that may encourage others.
I need to have a little more balance on what is going on in the whole body. Some times for the good of all we must come down from the wall for a little while but only a little while. 
Yep, I think that is a good idea.
Shalom
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Thanks Ed. Very interested detail. Love to hear @anon28331375 take on that. But in this verse Rev 20:4 you are saying that these saints come out of the tribulation.
You would agree though that the reason that verse mentions not worshipping the beast or received the mark was because they had opportunity to though, right? And the forced mark would be after the 6th seal yes? So you agree with me then that there are those who are saved after the 6th seal?
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Its not rocket science to see Daniel 12 and Ezekiel 3 in that though i donât think. I mean i donât think I am trying to read it in their too hard, you know? Plus then, what might it mean? It does seem to have to do with prophesying more, no, though brother? Why John, why then? I donât think it would just be like a pomp and circumstance thing announcing âtadaâ look we are going now to talk about even more prophecyâŚhereâŚweâŚgooooo 
It means something I recon. So what does chapter 10 mean to you Ed?
I appreciate your transparent and loving heart in him Dan. It can get crazy. If I might be of some encouragement. I have noticed the forum activity slow down a bit. Things are getting hot but we could be in for a while of a ride. I see conversations and friendships bonding here. It is nice to see. This may sound odd but a Christian forum would kind of be one of the last places I might check if I think something is goin down. I think because I know there is a tendency to be really excited and we can participate in a bit of hysteria. So i would try to come at calmer times in my heart. Unless something just went down and looking to see if anyone has commented. But this is a great place to be as this evolves. Its good to take a breathe and realize it might be a few years. It could be some months. Or it could be just weeks or less away. But I am actually learning a lot by being on this forum and another. And the things i am learning are things of spiritual sobriety. So Dan you are in a great place for God to use our forum for that effect upon your person as He has in my life. It is a place to sharpen our hearts in Him with one another as well as deepen them too. Good to have you around Dan. And remember brotherâŚyou might be here for a couple of years. So pacing oneself in light of this is not altogether unwise too. And donât let me burn you outâŚlol Blessings.
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Redeemed may I ask you name? Mine is Teren. I donât know if you were with us several months ago, but this forum used to be the wild west. It got so crazy it was almost shut down. We suffered loss of a lot of the forum though. And now it is starting to be revived.
Certainly the things we were warned about was the fighting. We now have mods from our own ranks and they are awesome. I mean really awesome and literally members from our forum from before. They are @jasonacts177, @Twi, and @anon43521308. If you ever need someone to talk to about something, I am sure either of the mods would be touched. I mean if things down the road get a bit crazy here again.
I think that is great that you asked Ed about the post and that the two of you worked through it amicably. As our convictions on the word of God may have our sentiments ablazing. I think that is actually a healthy spiritual sign in waysâŚit lets us know we are alive and it is a beautiful thing for someone to want to honor Godâs word with passion.
As we know we can all get sidetracked. Ed and I have had many back and forths on some pretty heated topics. We actually agree very little on thingsâŚlol. But any of us can get sideways at times. I know I have. And I just wanted to thank you for the way you handled this.
Please donât feel to not post with us. It is awesome having others interests and encouraging too. I am actually on your side on this one. Like I said Ed and I see things often differently. But i think your question is intuitiveâŚreally.
I donât know if you are familiar with much of my posts here, but I do have somewhat of a reputation of being a bit waaaaay out there But I just think it being a bit unconventional I call them âirregular hermeneuticsâ hehe. But there is actually such a thing. https://bit.ly/3vVZIxj Now I have several hermeutical books on the bible. I am pretrib rapture, pre-millennium and I believe Israel will reign with Christ for 1,000 years. But if you look at this guys number 5 (all the others seem to be âok,â but number 5?..lolâŚcome on).
â5. Didactic Passages Interpret the Symbolic:
Symbolic passages are not self-interpreting. They need to be interpreted by the open and plain meaning of didactic passages. To reverse the order is cultic. Roman Catholicism is wrong to claim that the Book of Revelation implies that virginity is better than marriage, for Rev 14:4 does not have moral theology in view. Dispensationalists use Biblical symbols to defend their views of the rapture, but the plain didactic teaching of 2 Thess 2:1-12 is that the churchâs hope is the return of Christ, not deliverance from tribulation. Dispensationalists also look for a future earthly Semitic kingdom. But this is ignore the fact that the Jewish church was a figure of the Christian church.â
Now I agree with the principle. But I am a dispensationalist. So to this fair gentleman who loves Christ, I would say looking for a Semitic future kingdom is biblical. And he would call me doing that irregular. SeeâŚthey do exist 
. . . . .
I would actually like to use one on you now if I may? The book of Daniel is interesting. It is written in two separate languages (Hebrew and Aramaic). It is also not written in Chronological order. Which is awesome. So I have wondered too about Revelation.
I took some courses on literary theory. And one class we had to write in a literary style I was so not comfortable with. It is called modular narrative. It is like writing a story from varying angles rather than using linear narrative. This was not a genre or style until the 1800âs and it its most popular use today is cinema or Hollywood. Pulp Fiction is a movie done in this fashion. It gets at at them from varying angles.
I happen to believe the book of Revelation is written in modular narrative. Please feel free to look up the term. It uses flash forward and flash back to drive at points. When we look at chapter 14 in Revelation we see that it is a table of contents of sorts to the bowl era (or the second halfâŚor Great Tribulation). Chapter 15 is the celebration in heaven getting ready for it. And chapter 16 are the bowls themselves. Then we are interrupted with how the whole Babylon the Great thing is ready for destruction, and then back in 19 to the bowl addressing THAT and Armageddon. So it is like a staggered approach.
I find chapter 7 intermingling with chapter 6 interesting. Because in chapter 6 we have the seal 5 saints pictured in heaven told to wait longer. Then in 7 juxtaposing is another view into heavenâŚlater. So to me it is book ends like. Seal 5 = saints who died during tribulation seals mostly. And chapter 7 snapshotting saints from the second half. I guess that leaves the trumpets periodâŚwhich would be to believers from the two witnesses while the 144k lay low it seems. We do see in Rev 15 that there are plenty from the trumpet period even though in trumpet 5 it seems they are all getting stungâŚlol.
But I think Revelation is in linear order (which is not the typical way modular narrative flowsâŚso I guess I would say it is irregular modular narrative?..lol. ). But uses modular narrative nonetheless I believe. Here is how that looks to me.
Chapter
1 opening
2-3 church
4-5 Heaven / Open seals
FIRST HALF
6 Seals / Saints in Heaven
7 144k intro / Saints in heaven (flash forward)
8-9 Trumpets
SECOND HALF
10 / 14 / 15 Inauguration of 144k preaching now
11 From beginning to middle â 2 witnesses
12 From beginning to just past middle (Israel / Church â leaving age of grace --trade off)
13 Mid to just past mid â focus on AC
14 Table of context for Bowls period (second half of tribulation)
15 Inauguration proper (singing heard to be teaching the 144k listening and learning in 14)
16 Bowls
17-18 Babylon the Great
19 Armageddon & Babylon Destruction
MILLENIAL
20
ETERNAL STATE
21-22
So i see it pretty linear and in chronological order. But like in 14 we see the reapers. I believe that equals the time of the sign of the son of man and Armageddon and the supper of God. I think they all correlate. But the reapers are in 14 as flash forward in a table of contents (things coming up belonging to the bowl series in the second half kind of thing)âŚif that makes sense? Same with warnings of the mark, and destruction of Babylon the great (which is bowl 7 to come).
If I might ask, you had a reason wondering if 7 was in chronological order? What was your observation. For me i would say it is. But those won by the 144k belong to the second half when the 144k will be sealed and inaugurated and ready to go. In fact I believe those in chapter 7 and those in Chapter 15 and those in chapter 20:4 are the same group. The last will be first. Huge honor for those who go through that. Of course there could be varying views of different months in playâŚbut they all seem to come out of the second half of the tribulation in droves. WowâŚamazing to think no? In any case Iâd be interested in your observation if different. We never know how God will teach us with simply looking like in NumbersâŚ(John 3:14-15 âirregular hermeneutical view of John 3:16â). Blessings
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I suggest this is mandatory if you die for not taking it? But I wonder if some Christians may take the Mark before its mandatory to bow to AC?
Some say this is the Mark right now in principle just not the coming accessories of control and Satan is trespassing on Gods property like he did in the garden.
Giving Abba legal action to change the plan to bring about justice for the ones that were deceived by the trespassing before his legally allotted time?
Interesting but going past my line as to complicated for me to spend the time on.
Shalom
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TCC
Why are the 144k sealed from Trumpets?
Redeemed777
what IF the 144,000 are representative of âa great multitudeâ
They are not sealed at Trumpets, rather, they are sealed between Seal 6 and Seal 7 in chapter 7, before the trumpets are even picked up by the Angels in Chapter 8.
And they are a distinctive group apart from the âgreat multitudeâ also, in chapter 7.
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We here probably know about the is situation, but here is a very good with more details about the situation we are in. Time to fly has never been more apparent.
Maranatha
Two Potential Nightmare Scenarios For The US That Could Soon Become Reality (prophecynewswatch.com)
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Revelation 14:3 would say differently.
Revelation 14:3
And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. And no one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
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It takes time to introduce a system and get everyone using it.
A distinctive element of the âMark of the Beastâ is that it canât be the âMark of the Beastâ until he is revealed. Certainly this is the foreshadow of it. The sons of darkness are working to get it in place.
The Tribulation canât even start until he is revealed (2 Thess 2:2-4).
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Hi Teren, just call me Anne
Let me go ahead and say, Iâm pre-trib, very, very conservative and I believe the Bible is the infallible, inherent Word of God.
With that being said, the posts in which Ed and others were discussing
about the 144,000 etc reminded me of things I had read in Bible Commentaries about Revelation. So, being kinda âimpishâ I just interjected the âwhat ifâ 
to see where it went. It went all wonkered after Ed thought I was twisting scriptures so I hushed!
I wasnât being a Troll or trying to argue with anyone, I was intrigued by the differing views and threw in anothers Commentary to see what would be said.
Itâs all good!
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