My farmer friend just loves to use that term. I have to smile ever time!!! By the way I think the same.
Shalom
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āSouthern born and Southern bred,
Be a southerner when Iām deadā
Sweet tea and Grits gal here 
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I get that. If I were new in Christ, Iām not sure Iād wade through 1300+ posts for any direction.
That whole āstrain out gnats and let camels walk byā comes to mind here.
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I agree we should not argue as it muddies ones testimony.
But not agreeing is not always arguing. if it is then we all are in trouble.
If we all agreed then we would already be in heaven, also if we donāt work these things through in truth and love we will be the worse for it.
Anyway we may come more close to arguing than we should I agree.
2 Timothy 2:23-24 Donāt have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lordās servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies, arguments about genealogies, quarrels, and fights about the Law. These things are useless and worthless.
Shalom
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thank you both for your replies, I have been extremely busy and am not engaging in any posts until Iāve gotten a chance to respond to both of you. just letting you know itās been on my mind and I donāt want to give a vague reply on something so important to me, something that can have a huge impact on other readers as well, as abortion is a touchy subject that I have learned to tread very carefully on.
teren, offhand I will say quickly that that article is a classic example of certain entities attempting to ānormalizeā abortion in our minds and to distract from the very tightly-woven connection between abortion and covax. I will get into details later.
thanks for both yāallās patience.
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Shalom and Much Love in the Lord
OK,
Well not to argue but I consider this topic more than a distraction.
But I do agree it has gone past its place in the discussion if it is crossing into other important discussions then it has become an interruption my honest apologies if I was part of that interruption/distraction ā¦
Thank you and Shalom
Teren, our current administration makes up the rules as they go along. Thatās all Iām saying. I DO appreciate the link to the form, though. I think it is the most direct access to a form that I have seen. 
It MIGHT workā¦I am just not sureā¦
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Hi Violet. My 20 + Christian experience had been under Macarthur. At the core of their ministry is church discipline. It is not only a ministry philosophy but a hermeneutic. The best way to express that is this: Although the church truly does demonstrated biblical love (they will go to extreme lengths to blessāseriouslyā¦my heart melts), they have a very high view of every believer needing to truly grow and mature from their own blood, sweat, and tears. That is not to say mercy and helps are not extended. For they are ridiculously magnanimously provided. But it is very important to them that a Christian learn the hard way if they need to. And they will hold your feet to the fire to make that happen. Its actually kinda cool. Intense and robust, but also very loving (as you have shared about the discipline of God).
One of the downfalls there is that there can be a lot of pressure applied to determine if one is saved or not. Are you growing? If not, maybe you are not saved. And although it can seem at times of almost mental illness or at least spiritual abnormality to be so focused daily on whether one is saved or notā¦the plus side is you get to see how those far more mature than you are thinking. Kind of like the upper class version of cultured spiritual boot camp. Like if you were raised in the house of the governor. Macarthur is OSAS, but it is amazing the amount of emphasis on whether one is saved on not. But the outreach and love at the church is rather unmatched in pretty much every other church I have visitedā¦its just a potentially rather bumpier ride. At the end of the day you find out its not about whether you were saved or not, but that you discover the deeper heart of God toward His desire of rewarding you (out of a heart far more loving than we can imagine). Funny how it ends up being like that after the dust settles. 
Its like the ministry of saying ādonāt look over there,ā (the rewards in heaven) but ālook over here,ā (salvation), as that leans towards a helpful niche for the church to come alongside with wholesome discipline (in a community refined sense).
So to answer your question Violet, I have had a lot of great, as well as deeply troubling, definitions within my heart associated with disciplinarianism. When Moses struck the rock instead of speaking to itā¦why was he kept out of promised land? Was it just disobeying Godā¦or does the word show us more? I believe in that you will see what I am saying about disciplinarianism. What was God so disappointed by that His own man Moses would not see the promised land after all his faithful service?
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Moses suffered the consequences of his disobedience which is what we all do. Moses didnāt lose his eternal destiny because of it.
God Himself āburiedā Moses.
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Grace, I think the important thing is that when they show up to our door, we say āNo thanks.ā
Amen. No I get it Grace. Bless you sister. What I am saying is that the current administration is one big mind game. The country has withstood over 200 years of this kind of tyranny (at least at the levels our country is seeing now). I think everything is worth a try is what i am saying. I mean if everyone didā¦the Bambino crime family would not get very far. Blessings. I hope it works too sister.
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Yes, please do Alison. Love the new word (at least for me) Covax
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Like you @Violet , I get annoyed at the gross generalizations.
We can have a very long and clear discussion in one thread where everyone defines what OSAS means to them and how it is nothing of what it is being painted to be, and then it starts all over again in another thread.
When it gets to this kind of point (as others topics have done also), it is time to let it lie and Private Message anyone who seems mature enough to carry on a good discussion.
In an open and public forum, you get people who love to hear themselves type, ones that like to stir the pot, others who want to finger a guilt trip on others, along with the ones who want to really fellowship, and encourage each other, and edify each other.
Our task and our lesson is discernment, which comes from Him. 
Sometimes, Silence is Golden, and we need to learn not to take the baitā¦
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I am feeling like your question is rhetorical and I am being dull/dense and missing something. I apologize.
May l answer anyway? I recently came across something in my reading.
God said Moses disbelieved Him and didnāt sanctify Him in the eyes of the people. Moses appears to have taken credit (the we in his statement?) instead of sanctifying God.
Num. 20:10-11 And Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock; and he said to them, āHear now, you rebels! Must we bring water for you out of this rock?ā And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.
1 Corinthians 10:4 says the rock is Christ. So in Exodus 17, Moses was told to strike the rock, as Christ was smitten to bring forth the living water of salvation.
In Numbers, when Moses was told to speak to the rock, seems like it was perhaps meant as a picture that after our salvation, we have access to speak to God and be nourished. Or is that not how you guys see it?
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How I see that yes.
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Amen. Please see my follow up to Violet. If one is looking at a potential loss of salvation, there does not seem to be anything in Moses life that would indicate, as @Saved-by-Grace has indicated (a walking away from God deliberately). As for the issue of Moses not losing salvation from the speaking to the Rock incident, yes it is a wonderous thing how gracious God is. Amazing is He
As a believer I strayed from the Lord for 4 years. On purpose running from God. Begging Him to undo His care and just get out of my life or end it (out of ego and selfishness and attitudeāon purpose). I ran from Him with passion and purpose and dedication and certainty. And throughout it all He kept pursuing me. And He actually through my grotesque sin showed me how He cared and love me. He stopped me in my tracks. The reasons I wanted out were the very things He used to show me His love. I was surrounded. There was no way out of the quagmire of my heartā¦but Him. He and He alone was the answer making Himself personally and utterly known to me. Jonah just did not want his enemies saved. I myself purposely ran from salvation itself. All along the way wrestling with God because He kept getting in the way.
In semi early days I went back into hardcore drugs. Got in legal trouble. Ended up back at AA and could not accept the 3rd step of recovery of the 12 because I knew who God wasā¦and it was all about not accepting Him. So it took a few more years to get sober again. I will be sober in October for 17 years. Nothing got me sober but drenching myself in His word (no program, institution, jail, church, ministry, nor 2 near death experiences). Just binging on the word. He made that possible when I did not want to come to Him anymore.
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Lolā¦actually I never thought of that. That is beautiful. My lady you have such poetry in your heart. Wowā¦i like that a lot.
Ok so here is the interesting thing about disciplinarianism: Christ did not only overcome death for us but He displays to us that He transcends reality. For what ever He creates is reality. He used Paul a persecutor of the church to write most of the new testament. He turned a harlot into a hero in the hall of faith (Hebrews 11). He turned a harlot into a worshipper and hardened the religious elite. He turned water into wine. He turned weakness into strength. He turned the Old Covenant into a New. Whatever He decides is most real besides any of our categories. Discipline is good. Proverbs are wise. To be wayward and sinful is foolish and hurtful. But He has blinded the eyes of the wisdom of this age. And although many see the church result to puppet shows and come as you are and sin its all good (not to mention the church also encouraging the worship of money and health and success), there is the other side. The side I have seen. Where it is the authoritarian church.
Now Christ has given authority to the church. But not like the Catholic church which is what happens when the mafia becomes a religious institution. Yet see how patient God was for over 1,000 years of its harsh reign? Today the discernment churches and Calvinism lean toward a disciplinarian mode. In some respects the world needs leadership. So like I said it is kind of cool. In another sense though, what happened to Christ saying āCall no man leader, for there is One?ā Or āDo not do as the gentiles and Lord it overā¦ā yet our institutions have largely leant toward what we see also occurring in the government: a soft power. A cuddly powder puff friendly business man with a smile power. A sanctified authoritarianism. And sometimes it is difficult to see where to drawn the line between adequate and too far. Culturally we have been shifting as a culture to blur the line ourselves between trusting authority and becoming a Stockholm baby. For it is slick and stylish and grooves with what is human and likeable in the craw of our being. In some ways a strong leader is a must of courseā¦it is just that we wonder how so many can walk around masked and vaxed up so easily like school kids that are adults? Authoritarianism has been helpful to our blood to boil at submissive room temperature. A healthy distrust in what I say is honorable. I half donāt believe it myself. Even so, God transcends.
But back to the verse in Numbers 20. Thanks Violet for risking an answer. I love that about you even though I could have been more clearā¦so thank you dear sister. Ok, yes Christ was that Rock. Now Christ was stricken for our sins. God demonstrated that. So here is Christ the Rock again with water. Was the lesson from hitting the rock the first time: āStrike rock/get water?ā No it was the people were complaining if God brought them out to the desert to die. Moses pleaded with the Lord thinking the people would stone him. God granted the Rock with water to be struck. Sure there is a lesson to listen to what God is telling us. But them we see this:
Hear now, you rebels!
Keep that in mindā¦
Nowā¦it certainly looks like Moses saying āshould we bring water to youā like he and Aaron did (so they wonāt stone them)ā¦yes. I see that. Very good to notice. I donāt think I saw that before like that. Nice. But how is it that God says the following:
Since you did not trust in Me, to treat Me as holy in the sight of the sons of Israel
How does God in the same passage describe, āholy?ā
ANDā¦
If the Rock is Christ, and it is, what will He be known for? Dying for the sins of others. Would Christ come to the cross and say: āYou wicked and evil generation. You thankless lot. You ungrateful creation. You deserve this. But i am going to the trouble of it myselfā¦you rebels?ā No. Christ did not say anything like that. Nor was that His attitude going to the cross. But when Moses struck the rock and called the people rebelsā¦he was not mirroring the import of the water giving Rock. Can we know this from the text? Yes. I believe we can.
Those were called the waters of [c]Meribah, [d]because the sons of Israel argued with the Lord, and He proved Himself holy among them.
He gave them water they did not deserveā¦not a tongue lashing because they were thirsty. And since the Rock was Christā¦the very reason for His death was to take those sins of those rebels and place them on Himself. All the old testament pictures show us Christ. He is the reason for the Old Testament including the Rock that gave water. And His mission was to die for His unworthy creation.
9 So Moses took the staff from before the Lord, just as He had commanded him; 10 and Moses and Aaron summoned the assembly in front of the rock. And he said to them, āListen now, you rebels; shall we bring water for you out of this rock?ā 11 Then Moses raised his hand and struck the rock twice with his staff; and water came out abundantly, and the congregation and their livestock drank. 12 But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, āSince you did not trust in Me, to treat Me as holy in the sight of the sons of Israel, for that reason you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.ā 13 Those were called the waters of [c]Meribah, [d]because the sons of Israel argued with the Lord, and He proved Himself holy among them.
Moses did not see the promised land I believe because He showed God as a disciplinarian where He was to be understood as their savior. I hope that makes sense. Thanks for taking the time to read. Blessing.
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Thanks @TCC
That is really interesting. I am going to read it over again tomorrow when my mind is more fresh.
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Yes! You can bet that we will say no, and everything is worth a try to stop them.
. We will march around and give the shout, āNo!ā
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Good morning @TCC
As I was reading over your explanation again, I had another thought come to me because of our contemplation yesterday of Hebrews. Thought Iād share and get your take.
If we view the rock as Christ in both instances.
The first time Moses was told to strike it in order to create a picture that Christ was to be smitten to bring forth the living water of salvation.
The second time Moses was told to speak to the rock to create a picture that after salvation we can speak to God and be nourished. But he disobeys and strikes the rock again.
This morning the verses we have been discussing in Hebrews 6 about how the Jews who had reverted back to doing an animal sacrifice thought they needed be born again all over again in order to come back into fellowship with Him was instead amounting to putting to open shame Christās once and for all sacrifice for sin.
Could it be thought that Moses action likewise also created a wrong picture of Christ being smitten and suffering twice?
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