Thank you! Haven’t tuned into that one yet but will check it out. I sure admire Jan Markell. 
@Romans1013
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Violet, I am really glad you posted what you did. Discussion can be very helpful for a number of different reasons and to different people for different reasons. I have had some history where people won’t see eye to eye on some things here on this forum. So from that perspective, thanks for what you posted and followed up with. 
RECOMMENDED READING: CHARLES BING
My take is a bit different from either positions noted. I think a very healthy look at what you have shared interest in is to check out the book by Charles Bing, Lordship Salvation (LS). I always desire more out of book than sometimes i get. But Bing does a great job of laying out many of the things on your heart and how you are perceiving. If is something you can go back to a lot because it has an index–a ton of scriptures. And his deep focus is not what we have commonly heard in some to many cases. The title of the book is in contrast to LS. Having decades of involvement with that movement, Bing is beautifully challenging.
RENEE’S QUAGMIRE
What I get from Rene is a lady who sees a trend in the church. And she is concerned about it. She sees Lordship Salvation [LS] (a rather complex and nuanced blending of salvation and sanctification). I can affirm from having 20 years of intimate exposure to the God Father of the movement…she has every right to be concerned. I also see her as a lady that is somewhat immature. Like her use of “the Holy Spirit does not convict.” What I hear is a woman trying to take on LS (which is a theological leviathan). And what she ends up with is a bit confused. Let me give you an example with this one.
CHURCH DISCIPLINE: THE MINISTRY OF THE SPIRIT
Ok, so she acknowledges that the spirit does convict the world of sin. I believe that is the primary import of that verse. It is the difference between belief and unbelief. And that is where the spirits ministry would be most aggressive. But she is not balancing that with the ministry the Spirit has in the church. We see example of Paul and church discipline as an extended example. We also see verses about God judges the church first, 1 Peter 4:17.
IN THE AGE OF THE WOKE CHURCH
I will however also give you an alternative on this as well. Renee likely sees a lot of criticizing Christians. Pastor JD has mentioned that there are those in the church that will be judging and critical. So have many theologians noticed over the centuries the tendency of church members to be gossipy, or harsh, or known to be the ones who can forsake their injured. There is a danger of the church becoming stoic and judgy. This has been a concern over the ages. And certainly in the midst of an age of apostacy. I fault Rene for noticing this not. But I think she tends to overly personalize some things and weighing them into doctrines.
THE REFINER’S FIRE
I have seen a church say that a ministry of the spirit is to cause you to doubt your salvation. Now, that is what I think Renee wanted to really address…but was not aware how. I heard this from an upstanding church in massive good public standing. In what Renee tried to emphasize about the Holy Spirit bearing witness that we belong to Him while the devil tries to cause us to doubt our salvation…well…I believe that was what Renee was shooting for but kind of in a mess up a bit way. But I had a pastor tell me that. That the spirit will cause you to doubt your salvation. And he based it on “experience” (a cessationist church) and some overly dry saw dusted version of something to do with David. It never made sense to me…because it isn’t true. Every church will have things wrong somewhere. It is unavoidable. So I see Renee as one taking on a theological construct that is like a football team. She is somewhat out of her league. After 20 years of exposure to Lordship Salvation, there are still many questions i have and i never stop learning and seeing more…and in many ways “out of my league” too. It is a super thick weighty and twisted labyrinth, very nuanced…and yes…shifty. Another line back theological player is Calvinism which is taking the church by storm today. As complex as that is…it is far easier to discern…but also…very subtly nuanced and “almost” as tricky (but not completely as much as).
THINGS THAT ARE HARD TO FIND ON THE BOTTOM SHELF
In fact on that note, what I have discovered over the last 5 years coming out of Calvinism is that many of the things they see during Jesus ministry to Israel they adopt as alternatively meant doctrines. Doctrines out of context. I believe there is much in Jesus ministry that belongs to the Christian church. But I do think their can be a blind spot in the church, unaware’s, of just how much in Jesus ministry was transitional. For example we read John 6:44 and think this is how we are drawn to Christ. In chapter 12 it tells us that Christ draws all men to Himself (post resurrection). What Jesus meant in John 6:44 was that if you lived by faith in trusting the Father you would be drawn to Me for the Father would reveal that since you were following Him. But the Pharisees weren’t. So that is all that verse means. Yet it is taken out of context by many upstanding ministries we would never say twist scripture. But a lot of churches do. Especially during an age of apostacy. Renee is not wrong to conclude that there is a definite side of transition from Old to New Covenant. She is correct that indeed there is. But to divide the word correctly on issues like that takes a lot of prayer, reading, and research. It is good to be warned of youtube videos that might try to bring such subtle nuances into focus…because theologians with doctorates argue these things leaving the laity to have to sort so much of it out in the difference 
.
THE DOPPLEGANGER
I do not believe in hyper grace or hyper dispensationalism. But it is seriously real that much of what was going on during Christ’s ministry to Israel is extremely healthy to approach with more of a weight toward exegesis (the historical, religious, cultural, etc.) rather than our 21st century takeaway. We all tend to do that. It is called eisegesis and it is reading what we think things mean today back into the text. This is a super common problem. It is awesome that you are interested in nuances and meanings…even ones that challenge some of the current day narratives. It is also awesome that Gigi took her time to present troubling areas Renee can get herself into. The way I try to look at these things is more sociologically. I grew up in a hardcore doctrinal church with extreme discerning of the word skills and I used it against my own church. I think it is of courageous hearts to point out and confront error. But i got kind of sick to my stomach doing that to my own church…and it has genuinely messed me up over it. Not that i was incorrect…but there are more things to consider than how doctrinally correct my church was. This may sound absurd…but it is my testimony and reality. I stand for fierce fights for the accuracy of the word as so should we all. But as I was discerning, I saw later there was so much more on the plate that was equally of such deep and intricate weight. Ex-Calvinists can also attest to the churches they split over missions of this nature. For me, I just tore my soul up and lost a very precious fiancé in the process. I had to learn that sometimes the maturity in other believes weathers so much deeper than what I thought false teaching was doing. The enemy can ploy with mirages of valor.
THE MOUNTAIN THAT AWAITS US
What i believe repentance is that John the Baptist meant and Jesus meant? "Repent from not realizing how much God loves you, became a man, and died for you, and His righteousness is the only way to salvation and to the Father. Repent from your dead works. Repent from your not realizing the true and living God has made provision for you. For to not recognize so great a salvation would be to not recognize reality. The reality God has done. The reality of Hebrews 12:22-29.
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of [b]angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
THE OPPOSITE OF ISRAEL…IS?
John Baptist was clearing the way for this event. Jesus confirmed it. In genuinely coming to Christ this way, we are humbled by His majesty. True conversion will bring us to our knees knowing this majesty that is far above our own rightness. And our life becomes a confession to Him, and correction unto Him, and a devotion to forsake sin (a cry before Him because “We Must Believe that He IS…and That He is a Rewarder of Those Who Seek Him–Hebrews 11:6”) because that is what His work produces in us:
John 6:29, NIV: "Jesus answered, ‘The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent .’"
…ever wonder why Jesus response to the fig tree withering (a judgement on Israel) was answered by Jesus in: “Have Faith in God.” AND…please read Mark 11:20-25. Blessing
Hi James. Not sure if this one is meant for me. But if so, I believe in a pretrib or @trib rapture. I see Rev 12 woman/child as seal rapture sign. Theoretically it can be at any point during the seals based on what I consider that sign to be. Even as late of the 6th seal. But my leanings are that it comports with a pre trib or very early trib rapture. I see the judgement cycles as linear. So I see trumpets after seals full set. I perceive the mark of the beast and abomination of desolation to occur post 5th trumpet. And the second half of tribulation to be bowl judgements. Blessings.
Well put, Teren. And that brings to mind this. We are told the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin (singular) and that the sin spoken of is v9 that “they believe not on me”
John 16:7-11
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
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Amen. Violet, yes this is very true and solid. I think Renee can hit the nail on the head at times, but it is good to remember that when Peter showed partiality with the Judiasers, Paul called him out on it. This was Peter “post” Pentecost. Now that’s a blunder. The spirit was not only involved in that…but wrote it.
Alternatively, I see the Luke 18 Pharisee and Tax Collector comparison as it is written. Not every gentile had the tax collector reaction. But certainly many gentiles are proud people. But that parable was to show the Jews that they did not get in via Abraham or Moses. They had to come through Christ. This verse tells us the nature of the comparisons:
9 Now He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt:
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What Pastor is NAR? I never heard of this until I read it here. I also never heard of hypergrace!
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Take a look at today’s post by America’s frontline Doctors on Telegram. I and several other Christians have posted in the comments about where to put your trust and faith when all hope appears to be lost. I pray this bears fruit amongst presently unbelievers who realise something’s very wrong with the vaccine and the integrity of those elected to protect our interests. 
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Paula White, and a number found on TBN. Here is a link that may be helpful
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I agree very much with what you expressed here and in the post below it, especially regarding salvation by grace alone ie, Jesus + nothing. I felt the discussion was mainly pertaining to recognizing a false teaching (er) that may snare or be a danger to newer believers, ie the “hyper” grace or “hyper” dispensationalism aspect.
(Frankly, for me personally, I tend to see most if not all the “isms” as bad news.) I agree too that unity is a wonderful thing, and have no wish to debate with anyone.
I enjoy reading other’s perspectives, for like everyone else here, I’m learning too. Always appreciate and enjoy reading your comments Doc. Thank you for sharing what you did.
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Just a loving blip from a resident research-nerd 
to extoll benefits of “playing in the dirt”, as was mentioned earlier in some posts…….
Ever wonder why we all seem to be feel better and happier in Spring? It turns out, God tucked away some amazing blessings in the soil, the science for which has only recently been “unearthed.” 
Its dubbed “The Farm Effect” And it’s right in your own back yards……
https://www. drnorthrup.com/dirt-strenthens-immune-system-happier-healthier/
disclaimer: kindly disregard the bunko about earth being “millions of years” old, etc…
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You have a beautiful heart Shirley. 
Appreciate so much what you found and shared with us. I learned a ton. 
thank you again!
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I believe JD recently spoke on this issue, where satan uses these labels to divide the church. Put a label on what a brother or sister believes, then the attack comes,(but always in love) us 
and them 
and satan sits back and laughs, he doesn’t have to do anything, we do it for him.
It took me over 50 years to go from SDA to Grace believer. Along the way, at different times, I believed other things, thinking I had arrived. When Jesus said, they don’t have ears to hear, (sometimes) I think He meant yet, He did for me. The revelations came through the Bible + life experiences that changed me, NEVER, by anyone beating it into me in love.
Today, I believe what I think is the Mystery of the gospel, hid in God, till Paul received it from HIM. It’s been a fifty year journey.
Do I want to get into a battle on a Christian forum with brothers and sisters in Christ, to prove what I believe to all, NO. (use soft stones) 
The one thing I have found to be the truth, the Holy Spirit is a much better guide and teacher than me. Sometimes it’s an immediate experience and sometime a long protracted journey. HE has the time and LOVE. I , on the other hand, am past my buy sell date.
I try and just accept, and love, all who claim Jesus Christ is their Lord, no matter were they are on their journey. (not always successfully)
Thank God; Lamentations 3:22–23 says,
“Because of the Lord’s great love we are not consumed, for his compassions never fail.
They are new every morning; great is your faithfulness.”
Peace Doc
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Thanks so much for the kind words.
The support of a few good friends like you more than makes up for the disapproval of those I irritake immensely.
Good beautiful Sunday to all
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So beautifully said, Doc. This particular part immediately reminded me of 1 John 2:27 and Phillipians 3: 12-13:
“Not that I have now attained this ideal, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to lay hold of and make my own, that for which Christ Jesus the Messiah has laid hold of me and made me His own. I do not consider, brethren, that I have captured and made it my own yet, but one thing I do (it is my one aspiration) forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead.” (ELB)
Yours is one amazing journey from SDA to Grace, and I praise the Lord for it. In the discussion that occurred yesterday, I didn’t perceive anyone as battling, only pointing to factors that might help a newer believer to avoid some of the pit falls that are so easy to stumble into early on in the journey.
But I do see your points as well. I’ve often felt that I learn more from the Holy Spirit while working out in my garden, than from any man or teacher. But what I would have given to have a Gigi and a Doc in my life years ago, when I took a wrong turn into some bad doctrines, maybe could have avoided if I knew what they really were at the root, and how they really worked. The voice of time and experience, ie wisdom would have been a great blessing.
I love how every believer is given a different spiritual gift(s), and when shared, these help the body of Christ in innumerable ways. A space for sharing and also listening to other’s perspectives is all that is really needed for such to occur and be exercised. Again I so appreciate what you and others in the forum share smiling_face_with_three_hearts: , and am grateful to God for you, Doc. God Bless.
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I believe the church likely is not here when the two witnesses arrive. They arrive at the beginning of the tribulation. As for the one world order, I am not aware of their timing and when they go into effect. To me, it is likely that the four horsemen are the period of time in which the NWO either grabs power, jockeys for ultimate power, or is stayed away from power. In my view it could be as late as the early trumpets that NWO have gain global power, or it could be that they have or gain a filling measure of it during the 4 horses.
I do not believe that the 1st seal would be the NWO or their set up. I believe seal 2 is possibly the violence they menace into place and seal 2 is their massive power struggle to gain control. I believe the two witnesses are on the scene by or at seal one but more likely at seal two. I do not believe the church is on earth when they arrive but perhaps we could be if they arrive prior to seal 2. I believe the church rapture is by seal 2.
The timing of the temple–I believe the temple is erected early. It could be during the 1st seal or early in the seals. It would appear to me that the two witnesses arrival occur at the time of the temple is being built or just about to be built. So I think it is highly unlikely that the church will see the new temple. If we do it would just be the beginning parts of its building likely.
The mark is at the midpoint. So the church is long gone by that time. So the church is not here when the mark is demand. I hope that is helpful. Blessings.
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Amen brother
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
I believe this sums it up pretty good.
All scripture is for us, but not all scripture is to or about us.
Shalom
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Thank you so much wren! Oh, I do not like that or the preachers I feel do not teach sound doctrine! I have to say I do love David Jeremiah. The others I really do not bother with.
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For anyone who may be interested-Mark Correll Ministries, which you can find online on YT, has been going through this the last 5 weeks or so and has a big banner he had made of up of the timeline of the tribulation. It is very informative and easy to understand! He goes through exactly what happens and when. If he is not sure he will say so and he backs everything up by scripture. Both he and JD say nothing has to happen for the rapture, that it can come at any time and there is no telling when the tribulation actually starts after the rapture. His teaching agrees with you that the mark is at the midpoint and the church will be gone by then.
I believe we will never have it as “good” as we have it right now and 2019 was probably going to be the best year we will ever have had.
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