Hi Wait4Him. Thanks for sharing you understanding. I’d see the pouring out of His Spirit and conversion nuance somewhat also not necessarily the same thing though. Although I would agree with @Robbie that God does as Romans 5 verse demonstrates. Wny I would see a difference though?
As a continouist, it could be thought of as the outpouring since Acts 2 ongoing. Something to consider in that perspective though, if that is true then we don’t need a later sense of Joel 2 (which I believe is mentioned–like an end time pouring out in our day as well). From how a cessationist hears this its like saying this:
- The Acts outpouring never stopped since the 1st century
- And there will be another one as we are approaching the tribulation
How can there be another one if the 1st one never stopped would be the cessationist question. Not to be argumentative. But to provide clarity and distinction in difference. Brother or Sister I would say I am not exactly the run of the mill cessationist. I’ve witnessed things myself (beyond my days of being a Charismatic) that I know transcend convention. If whatever that might be is a gift I have no idea what it is or how it is used. Too infrequent and seemingly far more related to the Person of God in how He just interacts with us.
I did meet someone on this forum a few years ago, who said he witnessed an actual town healer in a small town in South America. I have no way of verifying that. But the brother seemed very sincere. Can God grant a person in rural places to have the gift of healing in 2024? If He wants to, sure. But as we have seen in America the sham we make of it, and Pastor JD is right, we don’t see churches with the gift of healing going into hospitals all over the place. To me this strengthens the cessationist perspective. Here is why.
Pastor JD caringly mentioned that gifts like miracles and healing are not just “readily available” gifts to the saints. There seems to be a touch of sparing to how Pastor JD understands that works today (paraphrased). Whereas the way I would understand this is that if we were alive during the 1st century church, I don’t think we would have run into a church where they all have the gift of healing. But I don’t think our sense of it being overly rare back then might enter our way of looking at it because “what it pointed to” would be far more overwhelming. Like we have a saying today, “Does it bring them closer to Jesus.” The cessationist view on the gift of healing would be “Does it testify of this Jesus everyone had been hearing about” kind of thing. If that makes sense? But yeah if God wants to heal He will. And if He wants to grant a season for a church member too in gifted healing for a time, perhaps. I’ve never seen or heard of it besides the person that came to this forum. But I would see that God can do whatever He wants. And that of course might differ on how we categorize such observations we might have regarding how that works or might work. And how we land on perspectives of that perhaps differently.
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On a closing note, @Robbie , I believe brother that you know like we have heard in our generation that we only use 10% of our brains? Well not sure how accurate that is, but I would say we likely are well limited in the Western world as to how the Spirit would work in our life had we known or been open to this or that. Amen. So I hear your heart in this way brother. But I really like this commentators brief overview of the context for John 3:34.
For all my Christian walk I never understood the tongues of flames above the heads of saints at Pentecost. Like why tongues of fire? Just within the past year I became aware of fire as the representation of God’s very presence:
- the pillar of fire as God’s presence with them led moses generation by night
- Exodus 40:38 sees the fire even in the tent at night when not travling: “For throughout their journeys, the cloud of the Lord was on the tabernacle by day, and there was fire in it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel.”
- God started Moses altar fire, and stated 3 times the importance for them to keep buring the fire that God started: see gotquestions…
FROM GOT QUESTIONS.COM
Then came the Law. Outside the tabernacle, the fire for the burnt offering was commanded to be kept burning; never was it to be extinguished. Leviticus 6:13 instructs, “The fire must be kept burning on the altar continuously; it must not go out.” This is mentioned three times in this chapter (verses 9, 12, and 13).
One reason the ongoing fire was so important is that it was started directly by God: “Fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed the burnt offering and the fat portions on the altar. And when all the people saw it, they shouted for joy and fell facedown” (Leviticus 9:24). The fire on the altar, therefore, served as a constant reminder of God’s power. It was a gift from heaven. No other source of fire was acceptable to God (see Numbers 3:4).
- In Soloman’s time too we see fire as the glory of God presence igniter: And 2 Chronicles 7:1-16 demonstrates fire initiating the glory to dwell in Solomon’s temple.
So to see tongues of fire above heads of people at Pentecost would seem to reflect that fire presence of God that use to only generally be in a temple and lead people from the distance…now lives in us…amen.
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I know there will be different views from those more on the cessationist side and those more on the continuouist side. I understand as we have seen earlier on prior to this thread that in the body of Christ the concept of “false teaching” can be perhaps a bit more radioactive then we could otherwise foster discussion with one another as the spirit sanctifies. Personally i don’t believe it is ultimately the most helpful label–views (cessationist/continueism) that are upon the majority of the body…to term it false teaching so much. Because in that we can tend to be dimissive of one another. And since our kingdom, His kingdom, is not of this world. i believe charity where mature historical and biblical striving with one another would be more in line with the character of God whom resides in us…is my take. Blessings.
It is hard to say but only God knows.
But we are made in God’s image, and we are uniquely made. He loves us and will not forsake us.
