Michelle, I agree with you 110%. I turned loose of the helm to my boat. Being very strong-willed and determined to do everything for myself, it took the Lord many years that His resolve could increase and mine decrease. Praise God for His patience and mercy and love. I was a hard nut to crack.
God, You’re so Good to me!
I still have a long way to go…I mean I am still prone to get ahead of God but it is easier to spot it and quicker to turn loose
All I know is that the Rapture will not take believers by surprise. It will not be unexpected. We as believers are children of light and the day. It will not overtake us as a thief. All the references to not knowing the Day or Hour refer to the Second Coming when we examine the context correctly.
The Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 makes it clear when the Rapture will occur.
Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Psalms 51:10
Oh Rodney, don’t worry about this flock, we most certainly are taught the correct context by our Pastor JD and of course our own personal Bible study,
Please listen to yesterday’s sermon.You will be blessed
@Cynthia i’m so grateful you are my friend. Hope you will share scriptures and encouraging word along with photos of Steel Magnolia “Maggie” your beautiful horse. 
That is a personal belief not doctrine. It seems to come from a single verse taken out of context. In the context of the epistle it is Paul speaking to the Thessalonians about the a/c. If we look at 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. If we compare that to the verse you give 2 Thessalonians 2:3 but expanded to be more in context we see Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
It would appear that Paul is contradicting himself in two different epistles. That would imply that the Bible is contradictory if we follow that logic to its conclusion. Yet we know that scripture is not contradictory. In fact we used scripture to support scripture for is all Truth.
It is appropriate you mention examine the context. In seeing that we have in two different letters something that appears to be a contradiction and if we know that can’t be then we have to find out what is going on. The key seems to be a phrase we know as “the day of the Lord.” It is used both letters but does it mean the same in both?
Lets look at a terminology you would be familiar with, “fall in.” You would know it at one time as a command for soldiers to stop lolly gagging and get into formation. We all would also know it to mean something or someone fell or will fall literally into something such a child on a small pier might fall in the lake. So too is true of the term “day of the Lord.” It can mean a literal day or it can mean a period of time. But which means which in the two epistles?
We are fortunate to have book titles provided in the Bible that is a title referring to the subject matter of that particular book. So as we look at that to get an overall idea of what we will be reading about we see that in 1 Thessalonians the title is “The Day of the Lord,” and in 2 Thessalonians it is “Man of Lawlessness.” Well that does not do a lot to clear up our understanding but it gives us an idea. We can be reasonably assured that in 2 Thessalonians any mention of “the day of the Lord” is likely in reference to the a/c since “man of lawlessness” is one of several desciptors given to the a/c. So if we look closely at the verse you cited and the surrounding verses to ensure we fully understand what the subject is we find " 1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (emphasis mine) 2)That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand(emphasis mine). 3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." So as we look at the title Man of Lawlessness we know the theme of the epistle is about the a/c. But then there are a number of references to the Rapture even here. We see the menitoning of the
'gathering together unto Him" as well as "except there be a falling away first. Both are references to a time when the dead in Christ and those alive are gathered to be with Christ in the air in the twinkling of an eye. Finally it is added at the end the revealing of the man of sin be revealed the son of perdition. These are all events that have to happen before the day of the Lord. So it is safe to say this epistle explains what we now know as the Book of Revelation which was not written at the time of those epistles. So it was unknown to Paul or the Thessalonians there was more to the picture than they could possibly know. But now we have the extra information that helps us clarify better which “day of the Lord” is which. It is now clear that the “day of the Lord” in 2 Thessalonians refers to the 7 year Tribulation period.
Since the terminology “a gathering” is clear on its face that leaves this “falling away.” Only one thing to do there and that is go back to the original text because it is probably an idiom that does not have a good easy to understand translation into English. Looking into the Greek word from which we get those words “falling away” it is " apostasia" from which we get the word “apocalypse.” Mention that word to most people today Christians and non Christians alike they will tell you it refers to a time of great desctruction not necessarily a single day but a time when events are so bad that destruction starts runs unabated till the whole of the world is destroyed which implies a time period as opposed to a single day.
Now if we look to 1 Thessalonians we have the book title, “The Day of the Lord.” Oops that is a little ambiguous given our study but thankfully we have the rest of the book to read to clear that up. And sure enough it shows up in the second verse. So now we can cross reference with the Greek word from which it was translated and we find the word, " kyrios," means in the Greek 1. he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord, 2. 1. this title is given to: God, the Messiah. So we can literally rewrite the verse without losing or changing the meaning as, For yourselves know perfectly that the Messiah cometh as a thief in the night. And that right there contradicts what you believe that Jesus will come not only as the conquering King but also as a thief in the night. It also does us well to note there are other references to a thief in the night such as 2 Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.” Again the term “day of the Lord” translates from kyrios. Also again we have Peter writing before the book of Revelation was penned by John on Patmos. In both cases it is safe to say they were looking from a distance at the return of Jesus but neither of them could see there were two times He will come, once in the air and once literally to step foot on the mount. Neither Peter or Paul were in a position to see a time frame in between both comings. It is not unlike the first disporia came in two phases, so too the return of Jesus comes in two phases. First phase is the gathering of the church both dead and alive at that time. The second phase is physical return of Jesus to earth to begin His reign for a 1000 years as king. Of the first phase Jesus only comes in the air and only those that are His will see him at that time. In the second phase the whole of the world that is alive as few as that may be will all see him.
That leaves us with your opening statement, “…the Rapture will not take believers by surprise. It will not be unexpected.” Phase one has no prerequisite attached to it and that is reiterated a number of times in scripture. As such it can happen at any time. No specific events have to precede it. On the other hand it is an event that we are told has to happen prior to the revealing of the son of perdition. It and of itself is a sign of the Tribulation period starting.
Finally we have some supporting evidence to the Rapture being a stand alone event without prerquisite events happening first. We can find that Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. This statement comes after the listing of the signs of the end of the age which appear not only during the Tribulation but leading up to it. The very fact that we are to lift our heads and look up implies we are looking for Jesus in the air not on the ground. That would infer the Rapture event is near. Yet in Mathew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man , no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Jesus makes it clear that it will be a surprise just like the coming of a theif in then night. Jesus’ own words support 1 Thessalonians implication of the Day of the Lord as a single event just like a theif coming hidden in the night by surprise.
So with that being said, it would be safe to assume you are a mid Trib or post trib believer for the Rapture event. But it does us well to remember from the Code of Conduct we have: This Forum is also a place to discuss and engage with the Bible Prophecy Updates and Bible Sermons delivered by JD Farag and the Calvary Chapel Kaneohe ministry. As such we know from the many updates that Pastor JD is an ardent believer in the Pre Trib Rapture as well as it being a stand alone event with no requirements needed for it to happen. It is his well and often stated view that no sign is stated as preceding the Rapture only that it will happen a time frame of the signs given by Jesus to the apostles. That time by all accounts is now which implies at any moment Jesus will descend to collect His bride. Even that reference portends a Rapture with no warning if we have studied enough to learn about the ancient Jewish wedding traditions. We do well to also note from the code of conduct: Members will show respect for this ministry as well as the leaders and members, even if they don’t agree with them.
You may find yourself at odds in your interpretation of scripture and that is fine. I am sure we all have hill we are willing to die on that does not go with all Pastor JD says. It is just that we don’t don’t get into arguments over it. Finally I am sure you are familiar with the UCMJ and whether you realized it or not at the time you agreed to it. The same is true here, to become a member of this forum you also agreed to the Code of Conduct and I pray you do not forget that.
The Day of the Lord and The Day of Christ our 2 distinct prophetic entities. The Day of the Lord identifies with events associated with the Second Coming. The Day of Christ identifies with the Rapture or our bodily redemption.
The difference in context is clear and distinct. I do not deny the PreTrib Rapture I just can not wrap my heas around this nonspecific theological position regarded as the “Doctrine of Imminence”.
What would be the point of watching for something that will catch us unaware or that could happen at any moment. If you say we can see the signs that show it is near that would then contradict the whole premise of the “Doctrine of Imminence”.
Do you understand why there is confusion? It just does not make any sense and should not be dismissed under the umbrella of we will never know the hour or day. Every single reference to not knowing the day or the hour identifies with the Second Coming.
Luke 21 just like Mathew 24 is addressing Tribulation events and more specically to Jews in Israel during that time.
I’ll ask a question @R461810d - How do you know something is coming or happen at any moment if you don’t look for it? How do you expect the unexpected if you don’t seek? (that’s two questions, I know, but it’s the same thing asked two different ways in the event one didn’t sound acceptable.)
Have a blessed day! That goes for @everyone
Post has been edited!
Sorry Jon, this whole thing makes absolutely no sense in relation to scriptural evidence.
Okay. You have a good one, man.
[with the exception of adding this line, I have no idea why my post suggests an edit lol]
Thanks, you too!
There are some things in scripture that do not have a definitive scripture one can point to but the overall scriptures do support the doctrine.
Like the doctrine of the Trinity for example. Can you find one scripture that says definitely that there is a Trinity?
Some of these doctrines are inferred by taking the whole counsel God into consideration.
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
The whole point of Imminency is to be ready to leave at any moment - just like J.D. mentioned in his prophecy update.
It’s like if your boss told you he was going away and wouldn’t be back for a week. Well, during that week you could lolly around and not really care about being about your business.
But if the boss told you he would be away a lot - but he would be checking in from time to time - you wouldn’t be so apt to rest on your laurels but would be about the business you were supposed to be doing.
The doctrine of Imminence gets us to regularly check ourselves and our walk with God to make sure we are always found doing the Fathers business because we know he could come at any moment. It gives us an urgency to reach out to the lost so they are not left behind. There are a lot more reasons as well but that is enough for now.
Interspersed with those references are the ‘precepts upon precepts, here a little and there a little’ etc.
There has been plenty of discussion on the truth of this scripture. Some is not accepted by those wanting answers because they don’t line up with some people’s way of thinking. Some are not willing to HEAR what is being said because they have their own preconceived ideas. Some are just not willing to agree to disagree.
I haven’t seen anyone labelling you as being ignorant although I could have missed it.
Many of us have looked prayerfully at all of the evidence and we believe that Imminency is the truth.
As far as I know, no one has belittled you but in that statement, it seems you are accusing those on the forum because YOU cannot accept what we are saying or you don’t understand what we are trying to say.
I hope you find what you are looking for.
Soon we will all know for sure. 
Blessings
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:7
Pretty definitive on the Trinity. Just saying.
Good try but it doesn’t prove a trinity to me.
I could argue all your scripture points, but it would serve no purpose.
Believe what you like. I know what I believe and why I believe it.
We can agree to disagree.
Blessings.
Ok so as to appease the forum software I will address three post in one.
So we agree then the Rapture is one even and the Tribulation is the other. As separate events then the Rapture preceds the Tribulation. Let’s revisit Mark 13:32-33 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. This is what is commonly known as clear plain text. There is no symbolism, no metaphor so we take it at face value. Jesus clearly states no man knows when the Rapture will come and by the same token nor when the tribulation will start. All we do know is that the Tribulation is 7 years long.
Now if we are expecting the Tribulation and the Pre-Trib rapture we have to ask ourselves why that is. What gives us reason to even think we are at a time close to the Rapture? You state,
So I have to ask why do you think the Tribulation is near. What evidence are you looking at that would make you think such a thing. I mean after all it is prophecy not fulfilled but future so why now why not in the next century or the one after that? If I follow your logic then I have all the time in the world to do the things I want. There would be no sense of urgency if the signs of given in Luke and Mathew only pertain to events which happen inside the Rapture time frame. So something is now happening which would lead you to believe the Tribulation is near at hand.
Additionally if the signs given are addressing the Jews in Israel how are they seeing them. Orthodox Judaism does not read the NT. They are not listed in the old testament. So it seems as for signs they are not much use as a warning. So let us go back to the example I gave if driving down the freeway to a destination. If all the signs to tell me I am close to my destination or getting close are buried within my destination how do I know I have reached it till I get inside. Last time I looked the Highway department puts signs out along the road to my destination that tell me how close I am. So that discounts the claim that Luke and Mathew are for the Jews only. I would go far to say it is only intended for Christians since it was given the very first 12 Christians in the world. Additionally why did both Peter and Paul spend so much time explaining the doctrine of the end times to the Thessalonians. Is it because both false teachers and Jews were arguing against it? I would say yes that is the case.
So back to the question why are you even studying eschatology if you have no basis to know when the Rapture and Tribulation will happen. According to scripture it is clear no man knoweth the day or hour. That holds true for both the Rapture and start of the Tribulation. If we accept that as fact then there is no reason for so many the world over to be looking up for Jesus at this time like there is now even yourself. You say it best:
Further more you state:
Yet I would say to you, you have it backwards. Signs point to something and are not necessary if it is already where you are.
Yes I do. I see this very kind of confusion often especially in this time of history. Lets use Covid as an example. Ample evidence whether accepted or not points to the fact that Covid is nothing more than germ warfare. It originated we now know starting in the US. In fact in your state as one of many places that were doing gain of function research UNC was along with other universities in Wisconsin, Harvard to just name a few were all doing such research before it was deemed to dangerous and the moved to Wuhan China. Yet during the pandemic there were many who did not buy into the official narrative but also many that did to the point the often times got violent in attacking those that questioned the official narrative. So when people get stuck on an idea that they will go to their grave to protect as truth but is in fact a lie it cause for a lot of confusion. Sadly that is all too often human nature.
If you are confused is it because others disagree with your view or is it because you are not actually willing to weigh the facts? I would venture the latter but hey it is not like you have a corner on that market. We all do that to some degree or other and suffer the consequences of being confused. We pick and choose what facts we are told as being true and ignore the rest at our own peril.
To the above point this is your claim and yours alone. The majority of Christians who are eagerly awaiting the Lord’s gathering of the church do not agree with your POV. That being said there is little likelihood you will find many here on this forum to agree with it. So it begs the question if you see that and there is much evidence that you do in your description of forum mods and admins as Gestapo it begs the question why did you come here. Was it to have open discussion on sermons and prophey updates that Pastor JD does or is there some kind of alternative motive. I will let you tell us that.
I have another example that addresses a reply to you. I live in earthquake country. They happen but rarely to any significance like say California or Japan. But they do happen. When will the happen? I have no idea but still I prepare for the inevitable. I have some food set up, I can do water purification. I have comms to connect with emergency folks once they get set up. I have taken CERT courses to assist first responders to assist others. Why would I do that if I don’t know that significant quakes of magnitude 9 or higher can happen where I live. It makes no sense. What I don’t do is prepare for hurricanes and why is that. Simple they just do not happen where I live. That being said, how do I konw this? The answer is simple historical records of past events show that they have happened in the past and the geological make up of the area where I live is on the edge of a crustal plate all are signs they will happen in the future.
This brings us to the purpose of signs. Why do we have them? Some just provide information which door to use to go in or out, some warn of danger, some tell us the weather is changing. In fact Jesus spoke to that one specifically when addressing the Phrisees on how they can look a the sky and see signs of the weather changing but could not see the signs of His first advent and who he was. Yep they just ignored the obvious and to their peril faced the consequences with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Disporia.
I may have missed it but I have not seen any one labeling you as ignorant. If I did miss it I am sorry.
Actually that is not what he said. He was pointing out that he was being belittled by those with theological degrees and that he did not care about what they thought. So if the forum is as you say not being liked because of those who claim to be more learned would that not pertain to you. It was you who came here to tell the rest they are wrong and don’t know how to read and interpret scripture. I could be wrong in seeing that way and if I am please clarify that to me. But if I am right is this not the very thing Jesus did when dealing with the Pharisees. They were the educated one of his time, they studied scripture regularly discussed it often. And yet for all their education they failed the test to see their Messiah had arrived. But that is understandable to a degree because they were in the midst of a Roman occupation of their territory and were looking of a conquering Messiah who would rid them of the Romans. Unfortunately for them, their narrow mindedness refused to see the bigger picture which Jesus made clear, first and foremost they, like us now are in need of a redeemer because of our sin nature. Jesus went as far as to show us how bad we really are in that even if we looked with lust it was adultry, even if we gave out of our excess it was not done in love and there for a sin. Only though true faith in our hearts can we please the God who created us and loved us so much that He came to earth, lived a sinless life but died for our sins that being like us in human form we can eventually be like Him in glorified form. Everything else is incidental to that fact. The Rapture, the Tribulation, the explanation there of all take second place the Gospel. Yet there are many in this world are more like the Pharisees than the apostles who learned at the feet of Jesus how to live while here in love because God is love and God loves us that we may love Him in return.
I don’t know about you but I am not a part of a cult. I am a part of the church as we all are here. Looking at the definition of the world cult I find: a small religious group that is not part of a larger and more accepted religion and that has beliefs regarded by many people as extreme or dangerous Well I guess that leaves out the many forum members here because regardless of denomination they are a part of a larger more accepted religion called the church. It would seem that members who disagree with the major tenents of clearly defined doctrine would fit the bill more closely as a cult such as say flat earthers, follow the sciencers of late, the Gaia worshipers calling for climate change. Those and people with other fringe ideas are more of what we we would as reasonable people consider as cultist.
We can continue if you wish but it will be as pointless as you see the Doctrine of Imminence. Other wise I am ready to move on.
